Confusion over Campaign [Merged]

Reece · 01-21-10, 06:48 PM

IIRC, quite a while back a survey was presented by Neal asking what the most important part in SH5 is, a list was given and the one I voted on was "Dynamic Campaign"!

Now SH3 was held back from release so that we could have a Dynamic Campaign and all this time I assumed that this was, in fact, so, now we are being told that it wasn't, it was a Random Campaign!!

so when I filled in the Survey I was under the impression that Dynamic = Random, so too I think many others here in Subsim, I feel this is why the uproar, the new SH5 Dynamic Campaign is basically scripted with some random events, but what I expected was a Random Campaign!

I wonder how many others had this same idea?

Kapitanleutnant · 01-21-10, 06:49 PM

Everybody considered SH3 to be dynamic.
Ubi just moved the goalposts to fit in with their plans.

Sailor Steve · 01-21-10, 07:00 PM

After all this you still can't figure it out? What we meant by 'dynamic' was actually random. SH4 was exactly the same, but had some scripted events, such as pilot rescue, commando and spy insertion, supply delivery etc. This was actually exactly what SH1 had, but with improvements and additions.

One of the things some people asked for was true dynamics, i.e. your actions could elicit some reaction from the enemy, maybe even change the outcome of the war. They don't seem to have gone that far, but it looks like there will be AI resposes to your actions, including throwing more forces into areas where you've left your mark.

Quote:

I feel this is why the uproar, the new SH5 Dynamic Campaign is basically scripted with some random events

No, what they have said repeatedly is that it's random with some scripted events (like SH4) and some dynamic reactions thrown in. "Dynamic" means that the campaign itself is capable of reacting, changing and growing.

Whether they have actually achieved that goal remains to be seen, but you keep harping on this same theme over and over and over again, and you don't seem to be listening to what's been said. Every time they give a new explanation you wait a day and bring it up all over again.

Sorry to rude, but this time you really got to me.

ps. Back when the 'dynamic' discussion was going on for SH3 I stopped thinking in those terms after someone made the distinction (even back then) between 'random' and 'dynamic'. After that I started calling AOD, SH1 and SH3's way of doing things "Career Mode".

JU_88 · 01-21-10, 07:09 PM

I think the hysteria over the SHV campaign is down to some people misunderstanding and then jumping to conclusions.

They tend to selectivly quote something Dan or an artical says
and then follow up with the phrase...
"It sounds to me like they are saying..." or "I think this means..."

The Devs have said its an improved dynamic campaign & explained how it works about ten thousand times already.

Laffertytig · 01-21-10, 07:46 PM

sailer steve is spot on here. a dynamic campaign is a campaign where your actions can influence how it plays out, like falcon 4.0 for example.

none of the campaigns in the silent hunter series have been truly dynamic, they're random campaigns in every sense of the word.

i dont get the mass hysteria either

i assume there a lots of people here who remember the disaster that SH2 was with its terrible scripted campaign mode. this new campaign mode sounds streets ahead of that for sure.
ive got an open mind bout this SH5 campaign, it does sound interesting but time will tell i guess.

JScones · 01-21-10, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JU_88

I think the hysteria over the SHV campaign is down to some people misunderstanding and then jumping to conclusions.

They tend to selectivly quote something Dan or an artical says
and then follow up with the phrase...
"It sounds to me like they are saying..." or "I think this means..."

The Devs have said its an improved dynamic campaign & explained how it works about ten thousand times already.

This is where I have a small concern though. Grab out your SH3 box and look on the back. It says "Dynamic Campaign". Search around the internet and there's something from the devs at the time stating that SH3 will have a "Dynamic Campaign".

We found out a week after release that it was actually a "Random and Scripted Campaign".

The same devs are now promising a "Dynamic Campaign" for SH5.

That might be true, but after being led down so many wrong paths so far, I'm still sceptical on what they really mean.

Unless you can provide me links to some of the 10,000 explanations on how it works (not just those stating that it's dynamic). For some reason, despite there being so many, I'm not finding any that do anything more than describe it at a high level.

Reece · 01-21-10, 10:16 PM

I agree with what you are saying Jaesen, I am speculating on what the campaign will be like, probably to the point of paranoia!!

but due to what is happening with having only the VII boat and ending in 43, no rough seas, possible SH4 lightning bug and seeing no dynamic shadows in the latest video's and snapshots, the periscope view look awful, well I'm just a little disillusioned!

I wish they would spend a little time explaining these things!

Reece · 01-21-10, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

After all this you still can't figure it out? What we meant by 'dynamic' was actually random. SH4 was exactly the same, but had some scripted events, such as pilot rescue, commando and spy insertion, supply delivery etc. This was actually exactly what SH1 had, but with improvements and additions.

One of the things some people asked for was true dynamics, i.e. your actions could elicit some reaction from the enemy, maybe even change the outcome of the war. They don't seem to have gone that far, but it looks like there will be AI resposes to your actions, including throwing more forces into areas where you've left your mark.

No, what they have said repeatedly is that it's random with some scripted events (like SH4) and some dynamic reactions thrown in. "Dynamic" means that the campaign itself is capable of reacting, changing and growing.

Whether they have actually achieved that goal remains to be seen, but you keep harping on this same theme over and over and over again, and you don't seem to be listening to what's been said. Every time they give a new explanation you wait a day and bring it up all over again.

Sorry to rude, but this time you really got to me.

ps. Back when the 'dynamic' discussion was going on for SH3 I stopped thinking in those terms after someone made the distinction (even back then) between 'random' and 'dynamic'. After that I started calling AOD, SH1 and SH3's way of doing things "Career Mode".

If it is random with some scripted events that would be OK but that is not what I am reading, and many others I bet, what I see is:

Quote:

1) Starting a new campaign and have to complete a competency course before being given command of your boat, and each time you start a new campaign you will have to go through this again!!
2) We will start from a predetermined point and given orders to follow, once done will either return to port or given new orders, these orders are predefined to historic events.
3) As historic events progress the starting point will change to reflect this.
4) Depending on the outcome of events (depending on the orders given) the next starting point may change to a random, limited, number of starting points.

Once the campaign has been completed starting a new campaign will be basically the same thing, this will happen over and over, the only random change will be as in 4) above.

I hope I am wrong, and although it may not be exactly as I describe I fear it will be similar!

Quote:

JU_88 Said:
The Devs have said its an improved dynamic campaign & explained how it works about ten thousand times already.

Please explain it to me then, I haven't seen this!!

A discussion here would clear this up.

Mikhayl · 01-21-10, 08:12 PM

1) I seriously doubt that the training debut will have to be done more than once. Even if, what's so wrong with it? They said it's basically a training patrol. Supermods in SH3 moved the starting date before September 1939 to do precisely that!

2) this is the same as SH3 and 4, depending on your flotilla you start from the same harbour and you're given a variety of orders. And supermods for SH3 all thrives to do just that, see how many pages in the GWX manual about scripted/historical events, and all the radio messages in LSH and WAC to direct the player "where it's at", because participating in big events is more fun than sinking random ships in random convoys.
How the patrol actually pans out remains entirely variable, you may or may not encounter ships en route, on patrol zone, be attacked by aircraft, hunter killer groups, you name it.

3 & 4) same as SH3 & 4 and real life. Starting points = harbours. Depending on your flotilla you start in Kiel or Willelmshaven, move to the Atlantic bases, back to Germany or Bergen or any available harbours at a given date, including a possible transfer to the Med. What's the big deal?

Have some faith man

Reece · 01-21-10, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikhayl

1) I seriously doubt that the training debut will have to be done more than once. Even if, what's so wrong with it? They said it's basically a training patrol. Supermods in SH3 moved the starting date before September 1939 to do precisely that!

2) this is the same as SH3 and 4, depending on your flotilla you start from the same harbour and you're given a variety of orders. And supermods for SH3 all thrives to do just that, see how many pages in the GWX manual about scripted/historical events, and all the radio messages in LSH and WAC to direct the player "where it's at", because participating in big events is more fun than sinking random ships in random convoys.
How the patrol actually pans out remains entirely variable, you may or may not encounter ships en route, on patrol zone, be attacked by aircraft, hunter killer groups, you name it.

3 & 4) same as SH3 & 4 and real life. Starting points = harbours. Depending on your flotilla you start in Kiel or Willelmshaven, move to the Atlantic bases, back to Germany or Bergen or any available harbours at a given date, including a possible transfer to the Med. What's the big deal?

Have some faith man

Sorry to put a dent in that but here is a quote from Dan:

Quote:

Dan quoted TarJak: To get access to ANY historic port flotilla that you choose, you have to mod it. You will have several starting points that we have chosen

Also:

Quote:

Dan said:
Yes, you have a crew. Yes, there's a storyline to it

Carotio · 01-21-10, 06:52 PM

Well, I like the idea of RANDOM elements in the campaign too, like it's possible to mod in both SH3+4 with the mission editor, and if there's a mission editor in the SH5 disc too this time, then it's not my major concern. But still, agreeing to the meaning of a term is essential to which way a discussion is lead. So yeah, the campaign should be random, so it's not the same every time you play.

Mikhayl · 01-21-10, 07:00 PM

SH3 and SH4 campaign: random with entirely fixed elements, scripted player objectives distributed randomly.

SH5 campaign: random with dynamic elements, player objectives unknown so far but I guess it will follow the curve set between SH3 & 4, ie more detailed and varied.

I don't get the fuss over this, it's like people love to freak out

sk065 · 01-22-10, 01:19 PM

I know that what the Devs have basically said is that we can influence the enemies movements and responses. However, can other german uboats/ships also influence this?

Also, is it a persistant world where the clock ticks in realtime and events happen even while you are in port or is it a series of missions, each one based on the last?

Yosarian · 01-22-10, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sk065

However, can other german uboats/ships also influence this?

No way, like in CoD where you as a hero storming alone the Reichstag, you can now change in SH5 the entire course of the war alone with your submarine ...impressive isn't it?

rascal101 · 01-22-10, 06:02 PM

Hi to all
I've been thinking about another post re the campaign issue that many of us are worried about - the post in question states that there is a difference between 'dynamic' and 'random' and I think the difference and the explanation provided is excellent

So perhaps the easiest way to deal with the problem would be for Neil if He's in touch with the any one from the developer team to ask Dan for a more detailed explanation of what 'he' means by dynamic

As one who has been moaning the apparent lack of Dynamic Campaign, and who would dearly love to be wrong on this count, I stand corrected if what I should be moaning about is the apparent lack of an 'open-ended, random' campaign - as it would seem that this latter description would be closer to the way SH3 was constructed.

I think the problem remains for all of us that are concerned about this, be it dynamic, open-ended, or random, what we are concerned to learn is if the new SH5, or the missions therein will play out differently every time, or at least appear to do so as in the case of SH3 or will the game play out pretty much the same way once we've played through the first time round

Can some one get a comment on this single issue from the developers, its all that concerns me, the rest of what I have seen so far looks absolutely fantastic and I can wait to purchase and play this game?

Best Regards
Rascal

01-21-10, 06:48 PM	#1
Reece CINC Pacific Fleet Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Down Under Posts: 34,726 Downloads: 171 Uploads: 0	Confusion over Campaign [Merged] IIRC, quite a while back a survey was presented by Neal asking what the most important part in SH5 is, a list was given and the one I voted on was "Dynamic Campaign"! Now SH3 was held back from release so that we could have a Dynamic Campaign and all this time I assumed that this was, in fact, so, now we are being told that it wasn't, it was a Random Campaign!! so when I filled in the Survey I was under the impression that Dynamic = Random, so too I think many others here in Subsim, I feel this is why the uproar, the new SH5 Dynamic Campaign is basically scripted with some random events, but what I expected was a Random Campaign! I wonder how many others had this same idea? __________________ *Sub captains go down with their ship!*

01-21-10, 06:49 PM	#2
Kapitanleutnant Frogman Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 305 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 0	Everybody considered SH3 to be dynamic. Ubi just moved the goalposts to fit in with their plans. __________________ Oh worse than Hitler! You wouldn't find Hitler playing jungle music at three o'clock in the morning!

01-21-10, 10:16 PM	#7
Reece CINC Pacific Fleet Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Down Under Posts: 34,726 Downloads: 171 Uploads: 0	I agree with what you are saying Jaesen, I am speculating on what the campaign will be like, probably to the point of paranoia!! but due to what is happening with having only the VII boat and ending in 43, no rough seas, possible SH4 lightning bug and seeing no dynamic shadows in the latest video's and snapshots, the periscope view look awful, well I'm just a little disillusioned! I wish they would spend a little time explaining these things! __________________ *Sub captains go down with their ship!*

01-21-10, 06:52 PM	#11
Carotio Mr. Bad Wolf Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Aabenraa, Denmark Posts: 1,488 Downloads: 47 Uploads: 0	Well, I like the idea of RANDOM elements in the campaign too, like it's possible to mod in both SH3+4 with the mission editor, and if there's a mission editor in the SH5 disc too this time, then it's not my major concern. But still, agreeing to the meaning of a term is essential to which way a discussion is lead. So yeah, the campaign should be random, so it's not the same every time you play. __________________ Download my mods from SHMF Follow my photography here taler dansk, speak English, spreche Deutsch, parle français, forstår svenska/norsk, comprendo castellano

01-22-10, 06:02 PM	#15
rascal101 Grey Wolf Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 769 Downloads: 200 Uploads: 0	Perhaps an easy and civilised way to deal with the campaign controversy Hi to all I've been thinking about another post re the campaign issue that many of us are worried about - the post in question states that there is a difference between 'dynamic' and 'random' and I think the difference and the explanation provided is excellent So perhaps the easiest way to deal with the problem would be for Neil if He's in touch with the any one from the developer team to ask Dan for a more detailed explanation of what 'he' means by dynamic As one who has been moaning the apparent lack of Dynamic Campaign, and who would dearly love to be wrong on this count, I stand corrected if what I should be moaning about is the apparent lack of an 'open-ended, random' campaign - as it would seem that this latter description would be closer to the way SH3 was constructed. I think the problem remains for all of us that are concerned about this, be it dynamic, open-ended, or random, what we are concerned to learn is if the new SH5, or the missions therein will play out differently every time, or at least appear to do so as in the case of SH3 or will the game play out pretty much the same way once we've played through the first time round Can some one get a comment on this single issue from the developers, its all that concerns me, the rest of what I have seen so far looks absolutely fantastic and I can wait to purchase and play this game? Best Regards Rascal

01-21-10, 07:09 PM	#4
JU_88 Silent Hunter Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: UK Posts: 3,803 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	I think the hysteria over the SHV campaign is down to some people misunderstanding and then jumping to conclusions. They tend to selectivly quote something Dan or an artical says and then follow up with the phrase... "It sounds to me like they are saying..." or "I think this means..." The Devs have said its an improved dynamic campaign & explained how it works about ten thousand times already.

01-21-10, 07:46 PM	#5
Laffertytig Grey Wolf Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 757 Downloads: 110 Uploads: 0	sailer steve is spot on here. a dynamic campaign is a campaign where your actions can influence how it plays out, like falcon 4.0 for example. none of the campaigns in the silent hunter series have been truly dynamic, they're random campaigns in every sense of the word. i dont get the mass hysteria either i assume there a lots of people here who remember the disaster that SH2 was with its terrible scripted campaign mode. this new campaign mode sounds streets ahead of that for sure. ive got an open mind bout this SH5 campaign, it does sound interesting but time will tell i guess.

01-21-10, 08:12 PM	#9
Mikhayl Captain Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 485 Downloads: 64 Uploads: 0	1) I seriously doubt that the training debut will have to be done more than once. Even if, what's so wrong with it? They said it's basically a training patrol. Supermods in SH3 moved the starting date before September 1939 to do precisely that! 2) this is the same as SH3 and 4, depending on your flotilla you start from the same harbour and you're given a variety of orders. And supermods for SH3 all thrives to do just that, see how many pages in the GWX manual about scripted/historical events, and all the radio messages in LSH and WAC to direct the player "where it's at", because participating in big events is more fun than sinking random ships in random convoys. How the patrol actually pans out remains entirely variable, you may or may not encounter ships en route, on patrol zone, be attacked by aircraft, hunter killer groups, you name it. 3 & 4) same as SH3 & 4 and real life. Starting points = harbours. Depending on your flotilla you start in Kiel or Willelmshaven, move to the Atlantic bases, back to Germany or Bergen or any available harbours at a given date, including a possible transfer to the Med. What's the big deal? Have some faith man

01-21-10, 07:00 PM	#12
Mikhayl Captain Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 485 Downloads: 64 Uploads: 0	SH3 and SH4 campaign: random with entirely fixed elements, scripted player objectives distributed randomly. SH5 campaign: random with dynamic elements, player objectives unknown so far but I guess it will follow the curve set between SH3 & 4, ie more detailed and varied. I don't get the fuss over this, it's like people love to freak out

01-22-10, 01:19 PM	#13
sk065 Bosun Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 62 Downloads: 30 Uploads: 0	I know that what the Devs have basically said is that we can influence the enemies movements and responses. However, can other german uboats/ships also influence this? Also, is it a persistant world where the clock ticks in realtime and events happen even while you are in port or is it a series of missions, each one based on the last?