The one that got away

SteamWake · 03-11-09, 01:03 PM

Closing Gitmo may be a 'popular' move but it does have consiquences.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,508506,00.html

Enigma · 03-11-09, 01:08 PM

So does chemo therapy. So does the right to bear arms. So do public schools. So does well intentioned war. So does torture. So does wire tapping. So do school vouchers.

Everything has a consequence. Even when it's the right thing to do.

SteamWake · 03-11-09, 01:10 PM

School vouchers dont plot, gather resources, raise rabble, to destroy america and kill its citizens.

Enigma · 03-11-09, 01:14 PM

Neither do the many people held at Guantanamo for years, including people who were tortured, who were then released without charges.

Digital_Trucker · 03-11-09, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enigma

Neither do the many people held at Guantanamo for years, including people who were tortured, who were then released without charges.

And you know this for a fact? Where were most of the residents of Gitmo picked up? I suppose they were just caught jay-walking on the way to the 7-11?

Enigma · 03-11-09, 01:58 PM

I know for a fact that I'm against illegal detention. I know for a fact that I believe in due process. I know for a fact that I'd prefer my country not round up people, torture, them, incarcerate them for years then release them with no charges which indicates they didn't do anything, or at the very least, there is no evidence that they did.

Max2147 · 03-11-09, 02:23 PM

I think both sides are completely missing the point in this closing Gitmo debate. The real problem isn't Gitmo itself, it's the lack of justice.

Closing Gitmo and moving the inmates to another location won't solve the problem at all. It goes without saying that releasing everybody there will cause massive problems as well.

What they need to do is put the bastards on trial, regardless of citizenship. The government shouldn't be afraid of this. If we're certain enough of their guilt to have them locked up for 8 years, we should be confident that they'll be found guilty at a trial. Giving them a fair trial doesn't mean letting them get away. If they're guilty they should be found guilty at a fair trial. I'm not saying that they should be given a full trial by jury, but at least give them a chance to defend themselves in a trial that is acceptable to the Supreme Court. If they're tried and found guilty, they should obviously be locked up or fried in the electric chair.

The real problem shouldn't be what to do with the terrorists. The problem will be what to do with those found innocent at a trial. If you let them go, you run the risk of a self-fulfilling prophecy - an innocent person who is falsely accused and imprisoned without trial for being an anti-American terrorist is much more likely to become an anti-American terrorist.

It's like the scene from Sleeping Dogs where the main character (Smith) is thrown in prison for joining the Resistance movement, even though he's completely innocent. After Smith has been in prison for a while, the head of the police visits him and offers him exile in return for a televised confession that he is a terrorist. Smith refuses, and tells the policeman that he's never been part of the Resistance. The policeman's response is (paraphrasing): "I know, but because we imprisoned you you'd surely join the Resistance if we released you."

Of all the people imprisoned at Gitmo, I think most of them are probably terrorists or aspiring terrorists. However, I think there are probably a few innocents in there, and figuring out how to release them without them wanting to avenge the 8 years of wrongful imprisonment without trial will be a very difficult task.

03-11-09, 01:03 PM	#1
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	The one that got away Closing Gitmo may be a 'popular' move but it does have consiquences. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,508506,00.html __________________ Follow the progress of Mr. Mulligan : http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=147648

03-11-09, 01:08 PM	#2
Enigma The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: At comms depth, obviously. Posts: 1,476 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	So does chemo therapy. So does the right to bear arms. So do public schools. So does well intentioned war. So does torture. So does wire tapping. So do school vouchers. Everything has a consequence. Even when it's the right thing to do. __________________ "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain

03-11-09, 01:10 PM	#3
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	School vouchers dont plot, gather resources, raise rabble, to destroy america and kill its citizens. __________________ Follow the progress of Mr. Mulligan : http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=147648

03-11-09, 01:14 PM	#4
Enigma The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: At comms depth, obviously. Posts: 1,476 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	Neither do the many people held at Guantanamo for years, including people who were tortured, who were then released without charges. __________________ "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain

03-11-09, 01:58 PM	#6
Enigma The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: At comms depth, obviously. Posts: 1,476 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	I know for a fact that I'm against illegal detention. I know for a fact that I believe in due process. I know for a fact that I'd prefer my country not round up people, torture, them, incarcerate them for years then release them with no charges which indicates they didn't do anything, or at the very least, there is no evidence that they did. __________________ "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain

03-11-09, 02:23 PM	#7
Max2147 Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 714 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I think both sides are completely missing the point in this closing Gitmo debate. The real problem isn't Gitmo itself, it's the lack of justice. Closing Gitmo and moving the inmates to another location won't solve the problem at all. It goes without saying that releasing everybody there will cause massive problems as well. What they need to do is put the bastards on trial, regardless of citizenship. The government shouldn't be afraid of this. If we're certain enough of their guilt to have them locked up for 8 years, we should be confident that they'll be found guilty at a trial. Giving them a fair trial doesn't mean letting them get away. If they're guilty they should be found guilty at a fair trial. I'm not saying that they should be given a full trial by jury, but at least give them a chance to defend themselves in a trial that is acceptable to the Supreme Court. If they're tried and found guilty, they should obviously be locked up or fried in the electric chair. The real problem shouldn't be what to do with the terrorists. The problem will be what to do with those found innocent at a trial. If you let them go, you run the risk of a self-fulfilling prophecy - an innocent person who is falsely accused and imprisoned without trial for being an anti-American terrorist is much more likely to become an anti-American terrorist. It's like the scene from Sleeping Dogs where the main character (Smith) is thrown in prison for joining the Resistance movement, even though he's completely innocent. After Smith has been in prison for a while, the head of the police visits him and offers him exile in return for a televised confession that he is a terrorist. Smith refuses, and tells the policeman that he's never been part of the Resistance. The policeman's response is (paraphrasing): "I know, but because we imprisoned you you'd surely join the Resistance if we released you." Of all the people imprisoned at Gitmo, I think most of them are probably terrorists or aspiring terrorists. However, I think there are probably a few innocents in there, and figuring out how to release them without them wanting to avenge the 8 years of wrongful imprisonment without trial will be a very difficult task.