Clear the Bridge! Dick O'kane method

[45_South]

Greetings all,
I am trying to get my head around manual targeting and am currently reading Dick O'kanes' Clear the Bridge (very good read too by the way).

I started out using "the Dick O'kane' method as tutorialized (don't know if that's a real word but I'm going with it) by Rockin Robbins. I understand this method and have had some success with it - set up at 90 degrees to target track, offset aiming device 10, fire as desired points cross crosshairs etc etc.

However, every attack I read about in Dick O'kanes' book goes something like this (after the initial setup) "Constant bearing - mark!"
"Set!"
"Fire!" and the first torpedo went for her big stack aft. The next fish went for her middle, and the third forward.

What I don't understand is if he is firing as the target moves across his periscope crosshair, how does he shoot aft to fwd? This implies that he in fact does not hold his scope on a pre-determined bearing to fire but rather tracks with the target from aft to fwd?

I must be missing something basic here... calling Rockin Robbins to the bridge!
p.s. I tried to find the original Dick O'kane thread to post this to but failed miserably there also

[cleverusername]

The periscope reticle has markings in degrees that show where the various components are located. So you can see that the bow, middle, and stern compartments are located at 3 degrees left, dead ahead, and 3 degrees right. Then you use the offset feature in the TDC to aim the torpedoes at those locations on the ship.

I don't believe the "Dick O'Kane" method posted on the Subsim forums is historically accurate. Dick O'Kane, trained as a wartime US submarine skipper, would have used all of the features of the TDC and position keeper as originally designed, instead of the shortcut method posted here.

[commandosolo2009]

Originally Posted by cleverusername

The periscope reticle has markings in degrees that show where the various components are located. So you can see that the bow, middle, and stern compartments are located at 3 degrees left, dead ahead, and 3 degrees right. Then you use the offset feature in the TDC to aim the torpedoes at those locations on the ship.

I don't believe the "Dick O'Kane" method posted on the Subsim forums is historically accurate. Dick O'Kane, trained as a wartime US submarine skipper, would have used all of the features of the TDC and position keeper as originally designed, instead of the shortcut method posted here.

He did! And in the entire book, the TDC he used was to generate a range and bearing, (ie to check the accuracy of input) since he had to water-lap and dunk the scope alot of times, in order to not risk being spotted. He extensively used it at Honshu (fourth chapter and patrol)

[Rockin Robbins]

There is no evidence that Dick O'Kane ever used the Subsim Dick O'Kane method exactly as taught. As a master of the TDC he would have been intimately familiar with constant bearing attacks and would have used them.

Because of differences in how the game TDC works and the actual TDC it is not possible for us to replicate Dick O'Kane's practice. And when those of us who applied constant bearing techniques to the game TDC and came up with the attack method did it, we knew that Dick O'Kane had nothing to do with the technique.

In order to make our techniques memorable we chose to name them after prominent US Submarine Captains: hence the Dick O'Kane Technique and the John P Cromwell Technique.

These attack methods are historically feasible, meaning they could have been performed with the instruments and knowledge of the time. They cannot be shown to be precisely applied by anyone during the course of the war.

So you can do a game Dick O'Kane attack in a real submarine but you cannot use Captain O'Kane's method in Silent Hunter 4. Our game TDC will not allow it.

[XLjedi]

Originally Posted by commandosolo2009

He did! And in the entire book, the TDC he used was to generate a range and bearing, (ie to check the accuracy of input) since he had to water-lap and dunk the scope alot of times, in order to not risk being spotted. He extensively used it at Honshu (fourth chapter and patrol)

So what exactly is the issue?

There was a page in O'Kane's book I was trying to mimic where he was overriding the position keeper and holding the bearing to target constant. I could find it if I have to (I know I've quoted the page number here before); but I'd have to check his book out again from the library. I don't think anyone is suggesting the guy didn't know how to use the TDC as it was intended.

Frankly, I was trying to intitiate a Fast-90 attack in a US fleetboat, but the PK/TDC doesn't allow for adjusting the AoB while panning the scope (aggravating). I noticed that O'Kane could do something with his TDC that I couldn't do in the game and that irritated me a little. ...did my best with what the PK/TDC allows in this game and this method sorta fell out of it. This game models a position keeper PK and TDC as if they are forever joined, whereas I think the full contraption in the fleetboat had both a PK and a TDC and they could somehow be operated seperately, but I don't know that for sure, I just suspect it was the case from what I read of O'Kane giving various commands.

I didn't really have any idea what to call the technique, except that Fast-90 seemed inappropriate because the TDC doesn't have the same whiz-wheel qualities of the U-boat TDC. RR came up with the idea to give the nod to O'Kane... seemed OK to me, and less heady than calling it the RR or AB technique. I mean I guess if I were to try to accurately classify it, I'd call it the "No TDC" method. You're basically disabling the TDC and pointing the nose of the sub where you want the torp to go. Not quite as fun as what you can do in the u-boat but it gets the job done.

Incidentally, I recall reading that the fleetboat PK/TDC seemed to be an adaptation of a battleship targeting computer. My take on the u-boat vs. fleetboat method of targetting is that it seems to be oriented to the types of attacks. The US fleetboat seems better equiped for single target tracking and stealthy ambush, complete obliteration of single target. While the u-boat seems better equipped for setting a generic course for lots of ships (convoys) and then popping up and unleashing hell on several targets quickly.

I like em both.

[XLjedi]

Ummm...

I would like to go on record once again to mention that when I first described and tried to mimic O'Kane's tactics. I did in fact use the TDC as I believe O'Kane did and it has always been somewhat a thorn in my side that it was dumbed down over time but kept the "O'Kane" monicker.

What people call the O'Kane method now is such a crude method it doesn't really do O'Kane justice.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=134

...where I mentioned "develop a solution for a 20° bearing (70° AoB)" I was using the TDC to do it.


In his book, O'Kane did the same thing as I described in the above post... holding the aiming wire constant and firing as target points passed the wire. It was just one attack that he documented in his book, doesn't necessarily mean he always did it.

[CDR Resser]

If I may add something to the discussion about the 120 degree reference. After spending many years reading O'Kane's books, I finally found out what was meant by the 120 degree track in another of the books about both Morton and O'Kane, I believe by Tuohy. O'Kane himself mentions it only in passing in each of his books.
The 120 degree track refers to torpedoes being fired to approach the target ship aft of the beam, or 120 degrees off the bow. This aspect allowed a spread of torpedoes to cover almost any evasive maneuver that the target might make.
It was always rather difficult to imagine this before I was able to demonstrate it using the game.
Hope this helps, and I am not repeating anything already covered.

Respectfully Submitted;
CDR Resser

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by aaronblood

Ummm...

I would like to go on record once again to mention that when I first described and tried to mimic O'Kane's tactics. I did in fact use the TDC as I believe O'Kane did and it has always been somewhat a thorn in my side that it was dumbed down over time but kept the "O'Kane" monicker.

What people call the O'Kane method now is such a crude method it doesn't really do O'Kane justice.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=134

...where I mentioned "develop a solution for a 20° bearing (70° AoB)" I was using the TDC to do it.


In his book, O'Kane did the same thing as I described in the above post... holding the aiming wire constant and firing as target points passed the wire. It was just one attack that he documented in his book, doesn't necessarily mean he always did it.

I'm glad you posted this. It tends to be confusing when people see the "O'Kane method" and try to replicate exactly what was in the book. In the future it might be better to name techniques descripively rather than after historical figures, (i.e. The Perpendicular Attack method rather than The Jimmy Johnson Fleetboat Ace method). Many will see the most recent posts or the tutorials, but not read the hundreds of posts in the various threads.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by aaronblood

Frankly, I was trying to intitiate a Fast-90 attack in a US fleetboat,

There you go, right there! And that was the conversation that resulted in what we teach as the Dick O'Kane Targeting Method. It is named in honor od Dick O'Kane but has NOTHING to do with the mechanics of how O'Kane the person shot torpedoes. There is perfect evidence that he did constant bearing shooting. I think Nisgeis has gone as far as we can to determine what the mechanics were. Lacking the ability to "very carefully turn the target ship bearing input crank backwards so that the relative target bearing shown on the TDC does not move." as Nisgeis explains, we have to find historically plausible but not historically used methods of achieving most of the same result.

We achieved the booms. We did not preserve the use of the position keeper to validate our solution. Since our initial aim was to use the US TDC to replicate the U-Boat fast-90 attack as much as possible, we didn't feel we needed to go any further.

Yes, the Dick O'Kane technique could be extended to include other angles of attack than submarine 90º to target track with the introduction of complexity. However Nisgeis covered that perfectly with his Vector Analysis Technique.

That's where my personal goal of making successful captains out of newbie captains came in and I eliminated all steps that did not directly contribute to the boom. Aaronblood is right that using my rules of thumb can obscure understanding of the general concepts behind torpedo targeting.

But I figured that your next step is to wrap your brain around normal US targeting techniques, and you would understand it then anyway. My goal was to produce reliable manual targeting booms as quickly as possible for a newer player.

Limited goals plus ruthlessly simplified procedure plus application equals success. It's simple addition!

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by 45_South

Greetings all,
I am trying to get my head around manual targeting and am currently reading Dick O'kanes' Clear the Bridge (very good read too by the way).

I started out using "the Dick O'kane' method as tutorialized (don't know if that's a real word but I'm going with it) by Rockin Robbins. I understand this method and have had some success with it - set up at 90 degrees to target track, offset aiming device 10, fire as desired points cross crosshairs etc etc.

However, every attack I read about in Dick O'kanes' book goes something like this (after the initial setup) "Constant bearing - mark!"
"Set!"
"Fire!" and the first torpedo went for her big stack aft. The next fish went for her middle, and the third forward.

What I don't understand is if he is firing as the target moves across his periscope crosshair, how does he shoot aft to fwd? This implies that he in fact does not hold his scope on a pre-determined bearing to fire but rather tracks with the target from aft to fwd?

I must be missing something basic here... calling Rockin Robbins to the bridge!
p.s. I tried to find the original Dick O'kane thread to post this to but failed miserably there also

The clue here is in Dick O'Kane's calling "Constant bearing — mark!" Those words have a precise meaning that cleverusername doesn't believe is historically accurate. Let me put on my professor's cap and go to work here.

There are three methods of shooting torpedoes, according to the Submarine Torpedo Fire Control Manual, which I invite you to read to verify what I say.

The first method, and the one cleverusername refers to as "historically accurate" is the check bearing method. In the check bearing method, the captain makes the announcement "shooting will by the check bearing method" or some shorthand with the words "check bearing method" in them. This is a quick up and down of the scope to get a bearing, range and down scope. This method emphasized minimal, less than 30 second scope exposures to take a snapshot that could be plotted. They developed course, speed and bearing by multiple observations and checked the actual periscope bearing method (thus the name "check bearing method") against that of the TDC with PK on. When they were happy with the solution, they took one last observation to update bearing and range and shot with spreads set with the spread dial.

The second method is the continuous bearing method. In the continuous bearing method, the periscope is left up and constant bearings are continuously fed to the TDC to keep the TDC continuously updated with real bearing and range during the shooting of the torpedoes. As long as your speed and course are accurate, this is a very accurate way to shoot. You do expose your scope for a long time though. In certain situations it is very useful.

The third method and that referred to by Dick O'Kane in his book is the constant bearing method. There are many variations of the constant bearing method, but what they have in common is that the TDC is set for a solution and the periscope is aimed for that bearing. When the aiming point crosses the bearing you shoot, knowing the torpedo is going right where you aim.

Think of it this way. If you're shooting cute birdies out of the sky with your shotgun, there are two basic ways to get the job done. One is to sweep the shotgun across the sky with the bird until you're satisfied with the lead angle and shoot any time you want. This is the analog of the check bearing and continuous bearing methods. The second way is to anticipate a position in the sky the bird must cross, aim your gun there without moving it and squeeze off the murderous shot at the correct moment. This is the analog to the constant bearing method because your gun is aimed at a constant place in the sky. Kapeesh?

Dick O'Kane would start his attack the way we do. He'd work with the PK and tweak the inputs until his TDC was following the target perfectly. But to shoot, he'd sight ahead of the target, send a new bearing and crank the TDC bearing input backwards (more details available from Nisgeis or aaronblood) to stop the updating. We can do the same thing by clicking off the PK. Then he would wait for the target to pass by the crosshair, shooting as the part of the ship he wanted was on the line. He could do this quickly enough, sighting again ahead, waiting and shooting again to shoot his stern, MOT (middle of target), bow spread. He shot in that order to give him the maximum divergence in his spread. That made the attack more difficult to avoid if the torpedoes were spotted. Check out a John P Cromwell attack in broad daylight with a perfect longitudinal spread and you can see how easy it is to avoid a spread with no divergence.

We made it very clear when we published the Dick O'Kane method that we had no proof that Dick O'Kane ever used that exact methodology in his attacks. We did know he liked to use the constant bearing method and shoot as juicy parts of the target "crossed the wire." With the goal in mind of making a deadly attack method that eliminated every possible detail, while remaining awesomely lethal, what we named the Dick O'Kane attack is an adaptation of Wahoo's Fast-90 U-boat method, but using the capability of the American TDC, which automatically calculates the lead angle and allows you to set up the attack before you even see your target.

The real Dick O'Kane and the three of us who developed the Dick O'Kane attack had different things in mind. Dick O'Kane didn't care how difficult it was. He had a highly trained crew to back him up and could do several things at once. His attack would be very difficult for a beginner to execute.

My goal was to encourage the new player who had never tried manual targeting to give it a try, with the assurance that he would be a certified killer right off the bat. Frankly, it worked much better than I planned with many experienced players using the method often. At no time have we ever claimed that Dick O'Kane used this exact procedure. He did use very similar constant bearing methods, though, and they did use the American TDC in imaginative and very unconventional ways. The constant bearing section of the Torpedo Fire Control Manual has Dick O'Kane's virtual fingerprints all over it!

OK, enough defending. How are you going to do the max divergent spread with the Dick O'Kane method. It's really not too difficult. You will have to give up an infinitessimal amount of accuracy, because we're not going to have time to update the AoB during the shooting. We'll be perfectly accurate on the second shot, OK?

Let's say our normal shoot bearing is on the 10º bearing and our ship is about ten degrees long. So we'll set up our speed. Then we'll set up the AoB for that 10º shot--90-10=80º starboard or port, depending on which side he's coming for. Our first shot will be intentionally five or seven degrees before the perfect bearing. Point there and wait for the ship.......when that fat stack on the stern is in the crosshairs, shoot!

Now aim the scope just in front of the ship and hit the send bearing/range button. When the MOT is on the crosshairs, shoot! No time to dawdle here.

Again leapfrog to ahead of the target and press the send range/bearing button. When the bow crosses the line shoot as the mast crosses the line.

You've just shot the stern, MOT, bow spread, Dick O'Kane style! Your AoB settings were slightly off, but not enough to make you miss. You have 3 hits on order, American Express overnight delivery. Splice the mainbrace!

[Orion2012]

One question RR, when you said they "crank the bearing input backwards" do you literally mean they, physically jammed it up, or did I misunderstand?

Nice explanation though, very well said Professor Robbins.

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by Orion2012

One question RR, when you said they "crank the bearing input backwards" do you literally mean they, physically jammed it up, or did I misunderstand?

Nice explanation though, very well said Professor Robbins.

The input crank is one of the eight at the bottom of the TDC. The crank can be used to set the bearing in the same way that a winder on a clock can set the time forward or backwards. When the TDC is running and the bearing of the target is being advanced by the computer, the operator will manually crank the bearing crank in the opposite direction, keeping the bearing on the TDC contant.

An analogy would be trying to keep a clock at a fixed time, whilst it is running, by winding the spindle that allows you to set the time backwards. This is one of the 'skilled' parts of being a TDC operator. Anyone who has ever used a lathe or milling machine will know the skill and dexterity you need to feed in at a contant rate so as to give a uniform finish.

The difference between using the crank to keep the bearing matching the aim point and turining the PK off, is that everything is updated. As your ship and the target ship are still closing each other down, or possibly moving apart, if you are in a bad position, the problem is changing. With the TDC running and the bearing being held everything, e.g. the range, AoB, torpedo run length, gyro angle order etcetera are updated with the new problem.

[45_South]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Let's say our normal shoot bearing is on the 10º bearing and our ship is about ten degrees long. So we'll set up our speed. Then we'll set up the AoB for that 10º shot--90-10=80º starboard or port, depending on which side he's coming for. Our first shot will be intentionally five or seven degrees before the perfect bearing. Point there and wait for the ship.......when that fat stack on the stern is in the crosshairs, shoot!

Now aim the scope just in front of the ship and hit the send bearing/range button. When the MOT is on the crosshairs, shoot! No time to dawdle here.

Again leapfrog to ahead of the target and press the send range/bearing button. When the bow crosses the line shoot as the mast crosses the line.

Thanks mate! I will try this method and see how it goes. To be honest I was getting a little frustrated with manual targeting and went back to auto for a single mission to 'start again and build some skills' but it was like shooting ducks in a sideshow alley.

The last sub sim I played was 688 Attack Sub and things have obviously changed a bit since then and I think I got bogged down in all the mods (latest RFB etc) available with this sim and lost the plot on learning the basics.

Also, thanks for the link to the Fire Control Manual and I really appreciate your time and effort in such a lengthy and detailed reply. Hats off to you Sir

[Very Jerry]

While we are talking about the various tutorials and videos that help us landlovers understand the tactcs faster and more clearly, I personally want to thank Rockin Robbins, W Sobe and others for all their efforts. I would still be using auto targeting without them.

[Rockin Robbins]

And that, folks, is why I keep it simple. I credit manual targeting as the reason I still play the game. After awhile auto targeting is like shooting fish in a barrel, but manual targeting is just darn intimidating.

By eliminating every possible step, while rejecting shortcuts that sacrifice accuracy I've frustrated those better shooters who, for instance, know how to execute a perfect constant bearing attack without being on a right angle or a 45º angle to the track. But I've opened the door for people who thought manual targeting was black magic or Einsteinian mathematical wizardry with attacks that:

1. Don't require calculators, charts or any outside materials like plotting paper, protractors, is-was banjos or ouija boards. Those things are all good, but not for the methods I teach. I use only in-game tools and simple rules of thumb that are easy to remember, but still methodologically accurate.
2. Are reduced to a recipe that anyone can accomplish just by following the steps. You have a great chance of sinking your prey on the very first attempt. Just by reading the instructions you know that you can do this. Confidence is crucial when you're learning something new.
3. Are precise and precisely explained. There are no made-up undefined terms. If I say "longitudinal spread" you can be sure that if you look it up in the Torpedo Fire Control Manual, you'll see what it is and its definition.
4. Are for the purpose of producing skippers who are better than I am. Some instructional posts are heavy on the bragging and light on instruction. I want YOU to brag when you're done putting awesome amounts of Japanese shipping on the bottom.

Well, apparently there's no way to double-space the entries in that list. I keep some of the links to my stuff in my siggy. I also extensively use WernerSobe's [REL] Video Tutorals: TDC + PK advanced thread. I just kind of adopted it after WernerSobe was lost at sea. Also, look up tale's Multi-ship targeting videos. They're very good.

You might also search for John P Cromwell Technique, which Nisgeis and I cooked up. It's pretty interesting and has Nisgeis' method of vector analysis so that you can calculate a constant bearing shot from any angle to the track with a perfect zero gyro shot. It's more advanced than I would normally put in an instructional video, but just using it once reveals that the apparent complexity is just a cruel hoax. You can do it in seconds, and in-game too! No outside references unless you need a torpedo speed chart.

In order to run, you must first learn to walk. And it's great if while you're only walking you can do some interesting things, like blow up enemy shipping. Just please make an agreement with me. After you learn to run, don't make fun of the people who are still walking. Don't make fun of simpler methods as "unhistorical" or "shortcuts." There are plenty of runners who still use the Dick O'Kane and John P Cromwell techniques to their profit. And some of those walkers, like I'm goin' down, will be passing you in skills in a month or two!

My goal is to build a submarine fleet so good that I'm not qualified to be a skipper in it.