Are Japanese destoyers too good at detecting your sub??

[ddiplock]

So, I encountered a large Japanese task force with 2 Kongo Battleships in it, radioed in its location and was ordered to break off contact at my "discreation", though i'm assuming what they really mean is "try and sink the bastards"

So, I use my discretion and start maneuvering into a firing position on the lead Kongo. One of the nearside destroyers opens up with his ASDIC and everything goes to hell. I dive down to 400ft and evade the sods, not a single depth charge landing near me. That's good.

But, my point is, I can NEVER seem to slip past the escort screen of destroyers for either a convoy or a task force. I'm using the same tactics I used to use in SH3, and i was quite often able to slip in undetected. But ALWAYS, without fail, the Japs somehow know i'm there, even though I was creeping along at less than a knot.

What is the tactic for getting past the Japs?? because this is really unfair me being as quiet as possible creeping in, and they always blow the whistle on the whole thing!!!

Do I need to slip past them while running deep? and then come slowly upto PD?? Or as my question is.....Are Jap destroyers TOO frigging sensitive in being able to detect you early on???

[Mush Martin]

you know most days in a regular game I never
get detected and never go to silent running,
the better to reload torps with. letting them
come to you is the thing.

in my case If you use the distance between
the escort and the convoy as a yardstick
I usually fire from between 125 to 150% of that
distance out from the base course of the convoy
at right angles. most of my attacks in career are made
from that distance and firing into the target convoy
at 45 degrees AOB, why go inside when you dont
have to, if your not using the engines staying
off silent running means torp reloads, that and
firing early means that if you fire your first round
at 60 AOB reloads in a fleet boat means you can
fire twelve at the target before they pass.
keeping your scope exposure to a minimum is wise
of course when that close but after getting further
out from here the noise is less important.
if the destroyers do start getting closer than 1200yds
I do go quiet, but Gaining favourable
position and awaiting your enemy at ease is the thing.
to my mind anyway.

M

[ddiplock]

Originally Posted by Mush Martin

you know most days in a regular game I never
get detected and never go to silent running,
the better to reload torps with. letting them
come to you is the thing.

in my case If you use the distance between
the escort and the convoy as a yardstick
I usually fire from between 125 to 150% of that
distance out from the base course of the convoy
at right angles. most of my attacks in career are made
from that distance and firing into the target convoy
at 45 degrees AOB, why go inside when you dont
have to, if your not using the engines staying
off silent running means torp reloads, that and
firing early means that if you fire your first round
at 60 AOB reloads in a fleet boat means you can
fire twelve at the target before they pass.
keeping your scope exposure to a minimum is wise
of course when that close but after getting further
out from here the noise is less important.
if the destroyers do start getting closer than 1200yds
I do go quiet, but Gaining favourable
position and awaiting your enemy at ease is the thing.
to my mind anyway.

M

I've done that in the past, let them come to me and its not made a difference. heck, on one task force i had my engines totally stopped, and the lead destroyer still somehow picked me up, even with my periscope down. Because its so far been impossible for me to penetrate the defences of a convoy I might have to try for some long range shots, but that alone has its own problems.

1. Longer range means solutions need to be more accurate

2. Outlying destroyers on the flanks of the convoy spotting the torpedo wakes and alerting the whole group meaning there is a higher proportion of torp misses

I dont know, it just seems to me that Jap destroyers are overly sensitive and can detect you even with ur engines stopped and scope down. I must have been about 3200 yards from the lead Kongo on that task force when the outlying destroyer detected me. Too far for me to comfortably take a shot.

Only thing I haven't tried, is diving to say, 100 feet and trying to get in while running deep. But, that might not work either

[Orion2012]

I too have experienced the same problem, I generally try and put myself in a postition where I expect the convoy to cross, like you said at about a 45AOB, once the front ship in the convoy, not the DD, are within a bout 5000 yards I'll come up and begin taking meansurments and setting up my shoots. At this point its a crap shoot, I've had them start the active sonar as soon as I rise above the thermal, and then I've had 6 out of 6 hit before they even began evasive manuvers.

[LeeVanSpliff]

This might be quite stupid as I don't use map contact updates and my experience with convoys (in SH4) has been collected from a periscope/hydrophone point of view.

However, I think there is a gap between the escorts that mostly stay around the side and the escort that stays ahead of the convoy - if you wait to the side of the convoy I often manage to slip closer after the first destroyer is past and before the second shows up. Needless to say this also goes wrong sometimes and they pick me up.

Hey let me just illustrate what I mean with an ugly picture:

[Rockin Robbins]

What part of the war are you in? Are you using Trigger Maru? I hear Japanese escorts in Trigger Maru have Superman aboard. Sure seems like it sometimes.

If you're using Trigger Maru, remember that the mod is not to make the game more realistic, although it often does just that. Trigger Maru's prime directive is to make SH4 more challenging. You're not going to get any 100,000 ton cruises. 50,000 is kind of out of reach unless you find the right ships. Escorted convoys may be able to fight you off without you being able to make a single shot on the protected merchies.

It's sort of like a pitching duel in baseball. Or like a soccer (yuck!) game. To the uninitiated, these are just plain tedious. To those who have immersed themselves in the lore of the respective games, it's all exciting. I enjoy taking on the escorted convoy, knowing that my first approach often won't get me near the merchies.

I'm waiting for the escorts to detect me so I can group them all together on top of me. I'm hoping that one will peel off, shut down the engines and use their sound gear to vector in the others, because when they think they've got me, I'm coming up to peiscope depth set for point and shoot to send the sneaky one to Davy Jones' Locker with a single shot.

I've attacked at sundown so I can pull out, do another end around to the other side of the convoy, hoping the excorts are still bunched up on the side of the original attack, looking for me. Well, they're about to find me by tracing the explosions I'm about to make on their precious merchies!

I've made four separate attacks on the same convoy during a night, leaving nothing but a couple of escorts with nothing left to guard when the sun came up. The battle goes for hours and hours of real time, almost as long as the game time. Make a mistake and you're deadl Don't get greedy. Know when to hold 'em. Know when to fold 'em. And know when to run away, for you'll be doing all those things in the course of the night.

I wouldn't want it any other way.

[ddiplock]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

What part of the war are you in? Are you using Trigger Maru? I hear Japanese escorts in Trigger Maru have Superman aboard. Sure seems like it sometimes.

If you're using Trigger Maru, remember that the mod is not to make the game more realistic, although it often does just that. Trigger Maru's prime directive is to make SH4 more challenging. You're not going to get any 100,000 ton cruises. 50,000 is kind of out of reach unless you find the right ships. Escorted convoys may be able to fight you off without you being able to make a single shot on the protected merchies.

It's sort of like a pitching duel in baseball. Or like a soccer (yuck!) game. To the uninitiated, these are just plain tedious. To those who have immersed themselves in the lore of the respective games, it's all exciting. I enjoy taking on the escorted convoy, knowing that my first approach often won't get me near the merchies.

I'm waiting for the escorts to detect me so I can group them all together on top of me. I'm hoping that one will peel off, shut down the engines and use their sound gear to vector in the others, because when they think they've got me, I'm coming up to peiscope depth set for point and shoot to send the sneaky one to Davy Jones' Locker with a single shot.

I've attacked at sundown so I can pull out, do another end around to the other side of the convoy, hoping the excorts are still bunched up on the side of the original attack, looking for me. Well, they're about to find me by tracing the explosions I'm about to make on their precious merchies!

I've made four separate attacks on the same convoy during a night, leaving nothing but a couple of escorts with nothing left to guard when the sun came up. The battle goes for hours and hours of real time, almost as long as the game time. Make a mistake and you're deadl Don't get greedy. Know when to hold 'em. Know when to fold 'em. And know when to run away, for you'll be doing all those things in the course of the night.

I wouldn't want it any other way.

Yeah, I am using Trigger Maru. I enjoy a challenge as much as the next person, but it happens EVERY single time virtually and it can be really annoying I agree with you about the Jap destroyers having superman onboard...he's able to hear all!!!

I'll keep on trying, and if that fails, i'll have to practice longer range shots.

[groomsie]

Originally Posted by ddiplock

Only thing I haven't tried, is diving to say, 100 feet and trying to get in while running deep. But, that might not work either

In my opinion, that is the issue. I'm not an expert, but my successes in attacking escorted formations have come when I lock onto the "target of interest" (or lead target if there are multiples you are willing to bag--note I don't lock onto the escorts), engage the PK, and--assuming I'm where I'd like to be relative the base track of the group--go deep (prefer below thermal) sit quite and set your torpedoes. Once sonar tells you the lead escort is passing you begin your ascent from the depths and if necessary final maeuver to fire. Your PK should (provided the formation hasn't changed course--always a risk) tell you the range to target based on last know data and if you check the arrows it will tell you bearing to target to start looking. Keep in mind there are other ships out there and you may want to do a sonar (passive) sweep and/or a periscope sweep as you come up looking for possible close calls or a changed tactical situation. Open tubes as soon as you can to be ready to fire quickly. Once up to PD I lock back onto my target, disengage the PK (I've had it really queer a shot sometimes), and then fire.

What I find is if I'm deep the escorts will run right by provided they don't have other reason to have their alert up (such as spotting you as you approach your intercept point). Before, if I was relatively shallow (over 100') I almost always got clobbered.

Good luck man!

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by ddiplock

radioed in its location

There is a mild hint here

[swdw]

There are several incidences in Theodore Roscoe's US Submarines in WWII of IJN DD's pinging for "no reason" other than that was the way they were performing their escort duty. Even read where a couple of the subs followed the pings to the convoy.

[Nicolas]

I made a post of this with the same question, but this one is more informative.
It seems they get you when they are close no matter if you are all stop periscope down, i will try the thermal layer thing, so if a DD is above you but your sub is past the layer you dont get detected?

[AKULA_71]

Even if you are useing auto-targeting, abuse the PK. With good data pluged into it you can submerge well under the thermal and let the destroyers run over your sub. Then it's a matter of poping up to 95ft and launching a spread of torpedoes.

The PK makes attacks almost too easy but the catch is haveing good data along with a good fireing position.

[Kloef]

Thats why navigation is crucial!
Allways position yourself in a favourable position,with a slight angle on the convoys/strike force course.When they are close go to silent running,dive in the thermal layer and KILL THE ENGINES,wait....dont manouvre..if you still have to manouvre you made a mistake,the angle will keep you from being detected!

Let the lead destroyer pass you,now wait untill he passes over you,thats the time you make your move.When he passes go to flank speed for about 5-10 seconds,nobody can hear you now...use the build up speed to manouvre yourself in a firing position..rise to periscope depth,pick the most favourable target(not tonnage,but one with the highest probability of destroying,excluding small ships offcourse) and fire,use more torpedoes if you have a target with another ship trailing on the lane behind her,you'll be suprised how many hits you get that way..use the confusion and dissarray to make your escape,dive to maximum depth and steer into the convoy,keep the boat as close to the ships as you can,this will prevent detection!

If you do this the right way you will become a stalker like me,slowly demolishing the whole convoy,the 2 things you need are time and torpedoes...

If you stay close to a ship in the convoy you will be able to use battlestations and load new torpedoes without being detected,if you are detected there's nothing they can do except use depth charges,damaging their own ships or even sinking them!

Learn to break free from being too defensive,as soon as that first torpedo hits they know you are out there,attack and take your chance,confuse them,do unexpected things that will screw with their sonar's like i decribed above..

[Kruger]

I completely agree.

However, I have tried a more different approach. I allways attack convoys and task forces from distance. Minimum 5000 yards (nighttime preferably). In this way, I can maneuver and use battlestations , thus insuring a high speed reload of torps. I usually attack (in my tambor) two targets, and try to launch the two (three torps each) bow salvos as grouped as possible. More than this, I try to calculate my position and pick the targets in such a way that when I fire the first three torpedoes they are set to low speed, and the next three torpedoes are set to high speed. If everything goes well, both salvos will impact two different ships at different distances in approximately the same time. This timing doesn't allow the second ship to take evasive action after the first ship has been hit.

The escorts will go mad, hell will break loose within the shios, but you will be far away. As I said, about 5000 yards. Do not move (you are still presenting your small cross section to the DD's), stay on PD or at 45 meters, reload fast. Rise again, and see if you have another opportunity. By this time the remaining ships will be zig-zagging, but if you are lucky and careful you can still hit something.

[Rockin Robbins]

Now, just because they are pinging you, that doesn't mean they know where you are. Yes they automatically will ping you every time, but no, that doesn't mean they detect you and will react to your presence. Plenty of times in TMO I have just ignored a pinging destroyer and snuck right by or right away. Patience is your friend. Flinch and hit the jets at the wrong time and they'll detect you for sure. Be very slow and deliberate about your decision-making.

I know this doesn't make rational sense, but we are talking about a computer, not a submarine, water and an escort. The nature of simulation is often weirdness.