(TEC) Is it ok to..?

miner1436 · 02-14-08, 04:49 PM

Hello, I was wondering if it is ok take a 3D model of a ship from a diffrent game I have and use it with SH4 and release it as a mod. Just wondering if its illegal or not.

Thanks: Miner

Von Manteuffel · 02-15-08, 09:18 AM

Strictly speaking it's totally illegal. The skin will have been created by someone originally ( probably for the game you have ) and so, he/she, or the company he/she works for - the publisher of the original game - will hold copyright over it.

I don't suppose Ubisoft would mind too much if modders port ships between, say, SH3 & SH4. They own the rights to both games, but the owners of the rights to a skin from a non-Ubi game you want to use in SH4 might object.

Of course, a great deal depends on the circumstances. If the mod is strictly not-for-profit, but to enhance gaming experience and enjoyment etc. They could well allow it by "turning a blind eye." It will also depend on where in the sales curve the original game is. If it's an older game which isn't turning the publishing company many sales, they might take a more positive view of someone adapting their product than if its a brand new game where they haven't even recouped their original investment yet.

Digital_Trucker · 02-15-08, 10:39 AM

Of course, a lot would depend on whether they even noticed or not:hmm:

It's a tough call no matter how you approach it. You could just do it and risk the legal ramifications or you could ask permission and be told no (maybe).

miner1436 · 02-15-08, 11:38 AM

The model I was going to port over was the "Kaga" and "Akagi" from Secret Weapons Over Normandy from 2003 by Lucas Arts and Totally Games.

Von Manteuffel · 02-15-08, 12:26 PM

Advice is cheap to give, but if I were you I'd send them an e-mail to ask permission, explaining briefly what you want to do - stressing that it's not for sale, or profit - and promising to give them and their game full credit in your mod.

The worst that can happen is that they'll say "No."

Good luck.

miner1436 · 02-15-08, 12:56 PM

I sent them an EMail via Tech support, they should reply within 48 hours. I can only hope for the best.

vanjast · 02-19-08, 03:08 AM

I wonder if Lucas arts got permission from the Imperial Japanese Navy/Kawasaki Heavy Industries, and the Japanese WW2 memorial organisation, to do a 3D model of these ships.

ONE LARGE PIZZA with extra garlic and chillies, they didn't

Von Manteuffel · 02-19-08, 12:27 PM

What a wonderfully thought-provoking question!

As far as I'm aware, the answer is that copyright is dependent on the nature of the original and the nature of the "copy".

Take an object - any object, from a hair-brush to a battleship. It exists in the real world. It and it's physical components are protected from unauthorised copying by the law of patents - a form of copyright. So, you can't just come along and make a copy of the object with which to brush your hair, or sail the ocean without seeking permission ( and usually paying for a license for the privilege of doing so.) That is you are forbidden by the law of patent from duplicating the actual object, or any of its patented components as they exist in the real world in their original form.

If you make a plastic version of a wooden hair-brush and use synthetic bristles rather than natural ones, whether you are in breach of the patent which applies to the original brush will depend on the size, style and "look" of your version. Patent applies to function and design.

BUT, it is perfectly legal to make a drawing, or paint a picture, or take a photograph, or create an image of the object. That image etc. immediately becomes your copyright. You don't impinge upon the patent / copyright associated with the actual object, because you can't brush your hair with a drawing, or picture. Your copyright only applies to the picture / image / photograph of it, not to the object your image represents.

An exception to this is trademarks and logos etc. They are regarded as images and are subject to copyright. So, while you are at liberty to draw, paint and photograph the hair-brush; if it was a promotional object which advertises Coca Cola on its back, you would need to get the Coca Cola Company's permission before using, or distributing your image.

It's nothing to do with the actual hair-brush, but the Coca Cola logo is their copyright and may not be reproduced, or used without their permission. To avoid everyone who takes a holiday snapshot which includes a logo, or trademark from having to seek permission, the law usually allows the making of such images for "private use" But, if the person tries to distribute, or sell his, or her image of the logo, he, or she should seek the permission of the copyright holder. ( This raises an interesting question about merchant ships' liveries in games such as Silent Hunter. They were subject to copyright.)

That apart, EA, Ubisoft etc. are perfectly at liberty to use models of ships etc. which exist(ed) in real life in their games. Since they are not making a copy of the actual object as it exists / existed in the real world - i.e. it's an image, not a copy of the real thing, they cannot be in breach of patent. But, in turn, they do hold copyright on the image they create.

So, in this present instance, strictly-speaking under copyright law, because his version would use the same medium - computer graphics - and would be used for an identical purpose to the original - a model in a computer game - Miner 1436, would need permission to adapt, or transfer EA's model, or image into Silent Hunter. However, he is perfectly at liberty to create from scratch a brand new image, or model of the same vessel ( for which he would then hold the copyright).

Thanks for a stimulating intellectual work-out.

Easy on the garlic, but lots of chillies ..........and anchovies and capers?

vanjast · 02-19-08, 02:43 PM

Oleg and IL2 seem to be having this very problem, that you say 'is for free'.
Anyway their 'excuse' is that Boeing/Grumman are forbidding them to make 3D models of some of their planes for use in IL2.

Could this be the USA patent law 'going over the edge', or an excuse not to include certain flyables ? A sad day anyway...

miner1436 · 02-19-08, 04:52 PM

I wonder what kind of letter they want...:hmm: any pointers? Im not so good at writing letters.

M. Sarsfield · 02-20-08, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Anyway their 'excuse' is that Boeing/Grumman are forbidding them to make 3D models of some of their planes for use in IL2.

Shocker...

02-14-08, 04:49 PM	#1
miner1436 Grey Wolf Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 808 Downloads: 108 Uploads: 3	(TEC) Is it ok to..? Hello, I was wondering if it is ok take a 3D model of a ship from a diffrent game I have and use it with SH4 and release it as a mod. Just wondering if its illegal or not. Thanks: Miner

02-15-08, 10:39 AM	#3
Digital_Trucker Silent Hunter Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Peach State Posts: 4,171 Downloads: 141 Uploads: 10	Of course, a lot would depend on whether they even noticed or not:hmm: It's a tough call no matter how you approach it. You could just do it and risk the legal ramifications or you could ask permission and be told no (maybe). __________________ RSM-GIEP-Killflags-LV Tribute-Playable Elco __Peace be with you, Dave.

02-15-08, 11:38 AM	#4
miner1436 Grey Wolf Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 808 Downloads: 108 Uploads: 3	The model I was going to port over was the "Kaga" and "Akagi" from Secret Weapons Over Normandy from 2003 by Lucas Arts and Totally Games. Last edited by miner1436; 02-15-08 at 12:00 PM.

02-19-08, 04:52 PM	#10
miner1436 Grey Wolf Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 808 Downloads: 108 Uploads: 3	I wonder what kind of letter they want...:hmm: any pointers? Im not so good at writing letters. Last edited by miner1436; 02-19-08 at 05:27 PM.

02-15-08, 09:18 AM	#2
Von Manteuffel Commander Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: UK Posts: 473 Downloads: 411 Uploads: 0	Strictly speaking it's totally illegal. The skin will have been created by someone originally ( probably for the game you have ) and so, he/she, or the company he/she works for - the publisher of the original game - will hold copyright over it. I don't suppose Ubisoft would mind too much if modders port ships between, say, SH3 & SH4. They own the rights to both games, but the owners of the rights to a skin from a non-Ubi game you want to use in SH4 might object. Of course, a great deal depends on the circumstances. If the mod is strictly not-for-profit, but to enhance gaming experience and enjoyment etc. They could well allow it by "turning a blind eye." It will also depend on where in the sales curve the original game is. If it's an older game which isn't turning the publishing company many sales, they might take a more positive view of someone adapting their product than if its a brand new game where they haven't even recouped their original investment yet.

02-15-08, 12:26 PM	#5
Von Manteuffel Commander Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: UK Posts: 473 Downloads: 411 Uploads: 0	Advice is cheap to give, but if I were you I'd send them an e-mail to ask permission, explaining briefly what you want to do - stressing that it's not for sale, or profit - and promising to give them and their game full credit in your mod. The worst that can happen is that they'll say "No." Good luck.

02-15-08, 12:56 PM	#6
miner1436 Grey Wolf Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 808 Downloads: 108 Uploads: 3	I sent them an EMail via Tech support, they should reply within 48 hours. I can only hope for the best.

02-19-08, 03:08 AM	#7
vanjast Sea Lord Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Somewhere else now Posts: 1,740 Downloads: 825 Uploads: 4	I wonder if Lucas arts got permission from the Imperial Japanese Navy/Kawasaki Heavy Industries, and the Japanese WW2 memorial organisation, to do a 3D model of these ships. ONE LARGE PIZZA with extra garlic and chillies, they didn't

02-19-08, 12:27 PM	#8
Von Manteuffel Commander Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: UK Posts: 473 Downloads: 411 Uploads: 0	What a wonderfully thought-provoking question! As far as I'm aware, the answer is that copyright is dependent on the nature of the original and the nature of the "copy". Take an object - any object, from a hair-brush to a battleship. It exists in the real world. It and it's physical components are protected from unauthorised copying by the law of patents - a form of copyright. So, you can't just come along and make a copy of the object with which to brush your hair, or sail the ocean without seeking permission ( and usually paying for a license for the privilege of doing so.) That is you are forbidden by the law of patent from duplicating the actual object, or any of its patented components as they exist in the real world in their original form. If you make a plastic version of a wooden hair-brush and use synthetic bristles rather than natural ones, whether you are in breach of the patent which applies to the original brush will depend on the size, style and "look" of your version. Patent applies to function and design. BUT, it is perfectly legal to make a drawing, or paint a picture, or take a photograph, or create an image of the object. That image etc. immediately becomes your copyright. You don't impinge upon the patent / copyright associated with the actual object, because you can't brush your hair with a drawing, or picture. Your copyright only applies to the picture / image / photograph of it, not to the object your image represents. An exception to this is trademarks and logos etc. They are regarded as images and are subject to copyright. So, while you are at liberty to draw, paint and photograph the hair-brush; if it was a promotional object which advertises Coca Cola on its back, you would need to get the Coca Cola Company's permission before using, or distributing your image. It's nothing to do with the actual hair-brush, but the Coca Cola logo is their copyright and may not be reproduced, or used without their permission. To avoid everyone who takes a holiday snapshot which includes a logo, or trademark from having to seek permission, the law usually allows the making of such images for "private use" But, if the person tries to distribute, or sell his, or her image of the logo, he, or she should seek the permission of the copyright holder. ( This raises an interesting question about merchant ships' liveries in games such as Silent Hunter. They were subject to copyright.) That apart, EA, Ubisoft etc. are perfectly at liberty to use models of ships etc. which exist(ed) in real life in their games. Since they are not making a copy of the actual object as it exists / existed in the real world - i.e. it's an image, not a copy of the real thing, they cannot be in breach of patent. But, in turn, they do hold copyright on the image they create. So, in this present instance, strictly-speaking under copyright law, because his version would use the same medium - computer graphics - and would be used for an identical purpose to the original - a model in a computer game - Miner 1436, would need permission to adapt, or transfer EA's model, or image into Silent Hunter. However, he is perfectly at liberty to create from scratch a brand new image, or model of the same vessel ( for which he would then hold the copyright). Thanks for a stimulating intellectual work-out. Easy on the garlic, but lots of chillies ..........and anchovies and capers?

02-19-08, 02:43 PM	#9
vanjast Sea Lord Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Somewhere else now Posts: 1,740 Downloads: 825 Uploads: 4	Oleg and IL2 seem to be having this very problem, that you say 'is for free'. Anyway their 'excuse' is that Boeing/Grumman are forbidding them to make 3D models of some of their planes for use in IL2. Could this be the USA patent law 'going over the edge', or an excuse not to include certain flyables ? A sad day anyway...