Damage from Light Weapons in GWX

[iambecomelife]

While testing some new ships using GWX I decided to make a surface attack. I noticed that apart from my U-Boat incurring damage from the merchants' and trawler's heavy deck guns, the light 20mm armament was able to do pretty substantial damage to the sub. IIRC the 20mm was actually powerful enough to cause flooding. Did this usually happen in real life? I was under the impression that the pressure hull was able to resist nearly anything up to heavy calibre (4-5 inch) Naval weapons. No criticism of the modmakers is intended.

[Jimbuna]

Many planes were armed with 20mm cannon.....look at how many subs were either sunk or damaged to the point where they had to return to base.
The subs hull was a pressure hull, and once pearced, unable to dive to any great depth and thus....extremely vulnerable.

After the war, German
Submarine Command records
revealed that U-134 reported
downing a U.S. Navy airship.
The sub cited sustaining battle
damage to her No. 5 main ballast
tank and No. 4 diving
tank. After surviving two
more attacks, U-134 was
ordered to return to base in
France for repairs. En route in
August, her luck ran out when
two Royal Air Force bombers
intercepted her in the Bay of
Biscay, and sent her to the
bottom.

The K-74 fired .50 cal AP shells only.

It is believed the damages inflicted to the U-134 in this attack
played a major role in the sinking in the Bay of Biscay.

[Erich Topp]

I believe K-74 didn't throw any bombs?

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/i...g/50_ammo.html

All about .50 cal. Below the page is table with AP capabilities.
As you see, on 1200 meters AP round from M2 can hit only 10mm of steel (note - under 90 degrees, which not possible in real action). On 1500 only 7 mm.
That's more modern ammo, that been used on ships. Not all of them were armed by expensive AP rounds. Pressure hull is round, and hitting it by normal trajectory (90 degrees) is impossible. Anybody knows what was the thickness of light hull? Ballast tanks?
In SH3 bullet is the same effective on 5000 meters and 300 meters. Maybe it's reasonable to make stats, based on 1500 meters bullet capability, not 100 meters? 'cause on shorter distance ship will hit u-boat more often, causing more damage.
Also plane 20mm cannons are much shorter and weaker, than 20mm C30/C38 'cause of shorter barrel. Why planes aren't destructible, and pressure hull is? Mmm.. Plane fuselage is thicker?))

And.. after all... You say: Captain should leave deck gun to make "gun system" work properly, because no captains fired deck gun manually. OK. You made non-defeatable planes by config. OK. Don't you think you simply cutted out 2 parts of game? Balance of "realism". You can't shot down K-ship in GWX, but in real life K-74 were shot. Price of your "realism" is too high - it's a price of playability. All "forum amazers" after install playing around stats to return playability back.

PS: Please don't tell me "play stock". It's not a fresh joke. And it is a bit of criticism. To say so, you should have "light" version of the mod, that deals only with units, campaign and game appearance, not balance. Otherwise...take "feedback" from users adequately.

________________

[ref]

Originally Posted by Erich Topp

PS: Please don't tell me "play stock". It's not a fresh joke. And it is a bit of criticism. To say so, you should have "light" version of the mod, that deals only with units, campaign and game appearance, not balance. Otherwise...take "feedback" from users adequately.

________________

It's exactly what you should do, or start modding yourself and make the game suit your needs, we are not going to change the mod because one or two users don't like it or consider it unrealistic, GWX is made trying to match what WE consider realistic, and what WE find enjoyable to play, in our free time with NO obligation to no one, what we're trying to fix now are bugs (game crashing or disrupting problems), not the playability or damage model, so going back to your statement, and I'm not joking, if you don't like GWX either unistall it or modify it to what youthink it's correct.

Ref

[iambecomelife]

Originally Posted by Erich Topp

I believe K-74 didn't throw any bombs?

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/i...g/50_ammo.html

All about .50 cal. Below the page is table with AP capabilities.
As you see, on 1200 meters AP round from M2 can hit only 10mm of steel (note - under 90 degrees, which not possible in real action). On 1500 only 7 mm.
That's more modern ammo, that been used on ships. Not all of them were armed by expensive AP rounds. Pressure hull is round, and hitting it by normal trajectory (90 degrees) is impossible. Anybody knows what was the thickness of light hull? Ballast tanks?
In SH3 bullet is the same effective on 5000 meters and 300 meters. Maybe it's reasonable to make stats, based on 1500 meters bullet capability, not 100 meters? 'cause on shorter distance ship will hit u-boat more often, causing more damage.
Also plane 20mm cannons are much shorter and weaker, than 20mm C30/C38 'cause of shorter barrel. Why planes aren't destructible, and pressure hull is? Mmm.. Plane fuselage is thicker?))

And.. after all... You say: Captain should leave deck gun to make "gun system" work properly, because no captains fired deck gun manually. OK. You made non-defeatable planes by config. OK. Don't you think you simply cutted out 2 parts of game? Balance of "realism". You can't shot down K-ship in GWX, but in real life K-74 were shot. Price of your "realism" is too high - it's a price of playability. All "forum amazers" after install playing around stats to return playability back.

PS: Please don't tell me "play stock". It's not a fresh joke. And it is a bit of criticism. To say so, you should have "light" version of the mod, that deals only with units, campaign and game appearance, not balance. Otherwise...take "feedback" from users adequately.

________________

I don't really want to take the opportunity to criticize them. I am trying to find out what the actual capabilities of light-calibre ammo of the period would have been. Although I agree that the roundness of the pressure hull works in a sub's favor, since the slope gives it greater thickness than a vertical plate (and improves the chance of ricochets).

[Erich Topp]

I am satisfied with REF answer. Thanks. I already doing my best to return playability to this mod compilation. As russians say: Хочешь сделать хорошо, сделай это сам.
Where I can get shells.zon tweak-file for GWX 2.0? I believe stock one isn't compliant.
You are not forced to do anything for users. But users are not forced to say "amazing" too. We have democracy and freedom of a word. That's why I speaking what I think and know.

I am trying to find out what the actual capabilities of light-calibre ammo of the period would have been

Go to link I posted above. All is pretty clear. 12.7 mgun can be dangerous for U-boat only on distances, shorter than 500 m. If we will count also light hull bullet-stopping action (there is also air or water layer between light and pressure hull, and deformated bullet, that penetrated LH, definately will loose additional speed in it), we can insure, that machineguns could cause only very limited damage to U-boat (but vital, like air-driving shaft penetration, periscope damage, ballast tank damage, diving planes, hydrophones head etc.). But not a major danger for pressure hull. We definately should not receive "kill screen" after 100-120 12.7mm hits.

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by Erich Topp

I believe K-74 didn't throw any bombs?

Hi!

That is correct: the depth charges failed to drop when commanded.

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/i...g/50_ammo.html

All about .50 cal. Below the page is table with AP capabilities.
As you see, on 1200 meters AP round from M2 can hit only 10mm of steel (note - under 90 degrees, which not possible in real action). On 1500 only 7 mm.
That's more modern ammo, that been used on ships. Not all of them were armed by expensive AP rounds. Pressure hull is round, and hitting it by normal trajectory (90 degrees) is impossible. Anybody knows what was the thickness of light hull? Ballast tanks?
In SH3 bullet is the same effective on 5000 meters and 300 meters. Maybe it's reasonable to make stats, based on 1500 meters bullet capability, not 100 meters? 'cause on shorter distance ship will hit u-boat more often, causing more damage. Also plane 20mm cannons are much shorter and weaker, than 20mm C30/C38 'cause of shorter barrel. Why planes aren't destructible, and pressure hull is? Mmm.. Plane fuselage is thicker?))

Aircraft guns have been damaging U-boats since stock Silent Hunter III: the problem is that the Silent Hunter III game engine precludes death and injury to your flak gunners without also giving those guns the ability to damage and penetrate the pressure hull, as well as shoot at and damage ships and other aircraft. On balance, we decided it was more important to keep the players' flak gunners in peril than to stop machine guns from damaging your hull.

If you can find a way to do have guns damage your gunners without damaging the hull we would very much like to hear about it!

And.. after all... You say: Captain should leave deck gun to make "gun system" work properly, because no captains fired deck gun manually. OK.

You are welcome to fire the deck gun in GWX any time you please; however, GWX models to some extent the effects of a U-boat pitching and rolling on the surface of the sea, so if you fire at the wrong moment your gun barrel may be trained correctly in azimuth, but wildly overshoot or undershoot your target unless you wait until your gun barrel is at the proper elevation. This factor also affects the accuracy of your antiaircraft fire.

You made non-defeatable planes by config. OK. Don't you think you simply cutted out 2 parts of game? Balance of "realism".

Actually, you can shoot down aircraft in GWX - it is just nowhere near as easy as it was in stock Silent Hunter III. It was made more difficult because IRL it was more difficult, and U-boats generally avoided fights with aircraft for this reason. Your best bet may be to practice using the flak tutorial mission until you can shoot down all the aircraft in the mission with some regularity before challenging aircraft in an actual game.

You can't shot down K-ship in GWX, but in real life K-74 were shot.

An airship is not as easy to shoot down as you might think. All U.S. airships used helium for buoyancy, so there was no possibility of a Hindenburg effect; also, it takes a while for enough helium to leak out of an airship for it to crash: for example, the Goodyear blimps get bullet holes in them all the time while flying over stadiums in the U.S. from idiots on the ground shooting at them, and none have been shot down. Airship K-74 was the only airship shot down by a U-boat during the entire war, and they can be shot down (I've done it in testing), so perhaps if you keep practicing you will be able to shoot one down, too.

Price of your "realism" is too high - it's a price of playability.

PS: Please don't tell me "play stock". It's not a fresh joke. And it is a bit of criticism. To say so, you should have "light" version of the mod, that deals only with units, campaign and game appearance, not balance. Otherwise...take "feedback" from users adequately.

________________

OK, we have your feedback. Noted.

I think the game is eminently playable and enjoyable as it is (I have had time to play one patrol under GWX V2.0, in which I sank 19 ships displacing over 91,000 tons in the fall of 1939) at 100% "realism" (as defined by the Silent Hunter III engine). I vote to not add a "lite" option.

I won't tell you to play stock, but I will suggest that you

• 1. Practice a lot at shooting down aircraft in the tutorial mission, because those are the easiest ones to shoot down. If you can't shoot them down, don't try to gun down a rocket-armed Mosquito approaching your boat on an attack run!
  
  2. Take a look at some on-line references, or check out some of the references discussed in the bibliography in the GWX Manual, and learn more about the tactics of R/L U-boat commanders. GWX is "tuned" to reward the use of real-life tactics (like stalking convoys and evading aircraft, rather than charging convoys and shooting it out with aircaft)