AA Lethality?

Hanomag · 12-18-07, 04:11 PM

Mein Gott!!!
Some yahoo with an AA HMG did 12% dmg to my sub!!

Are you out of yer cotton pickin minds??!

WHATS NEXT DAS UBER SLINGSHOT?

Seriously Tho... When did enemy AA weaponry on merchant ships become so lethal and how come my AA isnt, when shooting at them?

I know I read something in the manual about engaging warships on the surface and that all their weapons, AA included would be brought to bear on your sub but this is ridiculous.
I know in the past I have brought up the accuracy of your average merchant deck gun crew. But now I have to worry about every merchant ship??

What if they have a hunting rifle aboard?

Mein Gott Noooo... Does this mean a few shots from a mauser or dbl bbl shotgun is gonna deep six my sub?

I have been rammed and DC'd and come out with as low as 5% total damage. But now.. some yin yang with an AA gun lets off a small burst and I have to scramble my repair crew to stop the 12% damage worth of flooding!!

Im flabberghatsed....

BulSoldier · 12-18-07, 04:17 PM

Keep in mind that your boot needs to dive and no matter where a shell/bullet hits your hull it does dmg, while if you shoot the superstructure of a ship it wont damage it floating ability.

In anycase the damage model of sh3 is not perfect but i find it good enough.I was nearly sunk by a fire from a torpedo boot.

GoldenRivet · 12-18-07, 05:43 PM

U-boats were not well known for their resistance to projectile weaponry, AA guns have even been used effectively against tanks in the past. 20mm HE AA rounds will work your sub over in a hurry. even "small" 50 caliber rounds will knock some sense into your u-boat.

even a destroyer - in real life - was obliterated by 50 caliber machine gun fire from a Tuskegee squadran P-47 when rounds penetrated the steel deck and ignited the ammo bunker within the ship causing it to explode violently.

can a ship equipped with 50 caliber or even 20 mm inflict moderate damage to a u-boat? the asnwer is an absolute and obvious yes. with enough 50 caliber rounds i could level my house - completely.

i submit the following:

this is a test of incidiary 50 caliber rounds against a 1/2 inch thick steel plate.

Mush Martin · 12-18-07, 05:46 PM

Under all circumstances ....... when in combat on the surface against
any weapon or delivery system keep maneuvering.

Sailor Steve · 12-18-07, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

even a destroyer - in real life - was obliterated by 50 caliber machine gun fire from a Tuskegee squadran P-47 when rounds penetrated the steel deck and ignited the ammo bunker within the ship causing it to explode violently.

I might be misremembering here, but the chances of a .50 caliber round causing a five-inch powder charge, which is in a brass cartridge, to explode is minimal. I think they actually penetrated the boilers, with much the same effect.

GoldenRivet · 12-18-07, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

even a destroyer - in real life - was obliterated by 50 caliber machine gun fire from a Tuskegee squadran P-47 when rounds penetrated the steel deck and ignited the ammo bunker within the ship causing it to explode violently.

I might be misremembering here, but the chances of a .50 caliber round causing a five-inch powder charge, which is in a brass cartridge, to explode is minimal. I think they actually penetrated the boilers, with much the same effect.

could have been, it was one or the other, i myself dont remember the exact cause of the detonation but i know the catalyst was a 50 cal round

Kpt. Lehmann · 12-18-07, 06:29 PM

One must also remember, that U-boat hulls are pressure hulls and NOT 'armored hulls.'

Sailor Steve · 12-19-07, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

even a destroyer - in real life - was obliterated by 50 caliber machine gun fire from a Tuskegee squadran P-47 when rounds penetrated the steel deck and ignited the ammo bunker within the ship causing it to explode violently.

I might be misremembering here, but the chances of a .50 caliber round causing a five-inch powder charge, which is in a brass cartridge, to explode is minimal. I think they actually penetrated the boilers, with much the same effect.

could have been, it was one or the other, i myself dont remember the exact cause of the detonation but i know the catalyst was a 50 cal round

Oh yeah!

I recall reading that way back in the American Civil War one of the chief losses of river gunboats was a boiler hit. Everyone ended up abandoning ship.

Even if a WW2 destroyer doesn't sink, a high-pressure boiler filled with holes is not going to make for a happy crew.

Pablo · 12-18-07, 06:24 PM

Hi!

Dave Westwood's Anatomy of the Ship: Type VII U-boat gives the "armor" (aka pressure hull thickness) around the conning tower as 32mm, and the pressure hull itself as a maximum of 22mm. I have some wartime penetration data (somewhere

) that indicates the 20mm Hispano Suiza cannon firing AP Mk.II.S ammunition could penetrate 27mm of armor (perpendicular to the armor face) at a range of 200 yards. This weapon was carried primarily by aircraft (e.g., the P-38, Spitfire, Hurricane, Beaufighter, etc.

Ball ammunition (the type most likely to be carried) would only penetrate 12mm at most, but lots of little dings could add up to some serious damage if you're under a few hundred feet of water.

It seems to me that 20mm cannon fire would only rarely penetrate the pressure hull, but it could create weakpoints which could account for a 12% loss of hull integrity.

Pablo

KeptinCranky · 12-18-07, 05:47 PM

Ummm,

20mm AP (that's armor piercing) May not make really big holes in armor but your boat is not armored, so the holes will be bigger, if someone unloads a 20 round magazine into your pressure hull you won't be able to dive until you get the holes fixed, and not only may they be hard to find, you might not be able to fix them. a 1 inch hole could sink your sub, easily. Not to mention permanent damage to secondary but vital systems like batteries.
These holes, even if fixed, should also make you very nervous about your boats ability to withstand water pressure, because patches aren't as good as the original hull.

I've never been a submariner, nor am I a naval engineer, but I've watched enough Discovery Channel to have second third and fourth thoughts about diving any depth with anything compromising my pressure hull.

IMO it should maybe be even worse to get hit by flak, a near miss bomb may rattle your boat, damage delicate systems, cause plates to buckle and possibly even shake loose an engine but it won't make a hole in the pressure hull.

I suggest reading the sections on this in the GWX manual, there's more detail

edit: dammit

Mush and Goldenrivet beat me to it, and Rivet even found a movie I was going to go searching for now, oh well

GoldenRivet · 12-18-07, 05:52 PM

20 MM hispano cannon - which existed in WW2.

nobody is going to convince me that this thing cant hurt a U-boat

KeptinCranky · 12-18-07, 06:03 PM

Goldenrivet

umm, yep, there's your problem.... :rotfl:

If that doesn't convince I don't know what will....

12-18-07, 04:11 PM	#1
Hanomag Grey Wolf Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: LI NY Posts: 964 Downloads: 13 Uploads: 0	AA Lethality? Mein Gott!!! Some yahoo with an AA HMG did 12% dmg to my sub!! Are you out of yer cotton pickin minds??! WHATS NEXT DAS UBER SLINGSHOT? Seriously Tho... When did enemy AA weaponry on merchant ships become so lethal and how come my AA isnt, when shooting at them? I know I read something in the manual about engaging warships on the surface and that all their weapons, AA included would be brought to bear on your sub but this is ridiculous. I know in the past I have brought up the accuracy of your average merchant deck gun crew. But now I have to worry about every merchant ship?? What if they have a hunting rifle aboard? Mein Gott Noooo... Does this mean a few shots from a mauser or dbl bbl shotgun is gonna deep six my sub? I have been rammed and DC'd and come out with as low as 5% total damage. But now.. some yin yang with an AA gun lets off a small burst and I have to scramble my repair crew to stop the 12% damage worth of flooding!! Im flabberghatsed.... __________________ "Only if I can save first..." Last edited by Hanomag; 04-28-09 at 09:58 AM.

12-18-07, 04:17 PM	#2
BulSoldier Samurai Navy Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Burgas/Bulgaria Posts: 550 Downloads: 40 Uploads: 0	Keep in mind that your boot needs to dive and no matter where a shell/bullet hits your hull it does dmg, while if you shoot the superstructure of a ship it wont damage it floating ability. In anycase the damage model of sh3 is not perfect but i find it good enough.I was nearly sunk by a fire from a torpedo boot. __________________ By the hour !

12-18-07, 05:43 PM	#3
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	U-boats were not well known for their resistance to projectile weaponry, AA guns have even been used effectively against tanks in the past. 20mm HE AA rounds will work your sub over in a hurry. even "small" 50 caliber rounds will knock some sense into your u-boat. even a destroyer - in real life - was obliterated by 50 caliber machine gun fire from a Tuskegee squadran P-47 when rounds penetrated the steel deck and ignited the ammo bunker within the ship causing it to explode violently. can a ship equipped with 50 caliber or even 20 mm inflict moderate damage to a u-boat? the asnwer is an absolute and obvious yes. with enough 50 caliber rounds i could level my house - completely. i submit the following: this is a test of incidiary 50 caliber rounds against a 1/2 inch thick steel plate. __________________

12-18-07, 05:46 PM	#4
Mush Martin Eternal Patrol Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,398 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	Under all circumstances ....... when in combat on the surface against any weapon or delivery system keep maneuvering. __________________ RIP Mush Tutorial

12-18-07, 06:29 PM	#7
Kpt. Lehmann GWX Project Director Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The Republic of Texas Posts: 6,996 Downloads: 124 Uploads: 0	One must also remember, that U-boat hulls are *pressure hulls* and NOT 'armored hulls.' __________________ www.thegreywolves.com All you need is good men. - Heinrich Lehmann-Willenbrock

12-18-07, 06:24 PM	#9
Pablo Commodore Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 641 Downloads: 168 Uploads: 0	Hi! Dave Westwood's Anatomy of the Ship: Type VII U-boat gives the "armor" (aka pressure hull thickness) around the conning tower as 32mm, and the pressure hull itself as a maximum of 22mm. I have some wartime penetration data (somewhere ) that indicates the 20mm Hispano Suiza cannon firing AP Mk.II.S ammunition could penetrate 27mm of armor (perpendicular to the armor face) at a range of 200 yards. This weapon was carried primarily by aircraft (e.g., the P-38, Spitfire, Hurricane, Beaufighter, etc. Ball ammunition (the type most likely to be carried) would only penetrate 12mm at most, but lots of little dings could add up to some serious damage if you're under a few hundred feet of water. It seems to me that 20mm cannon fire would only rarely penetrate the pressure hull, but it could create weakpoints which could account for a 12% loss of hull integrity. Pablo __________________ "...far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt, speech before the Hamilton Club, Chicago, April 10, 1899

12-18-07, 05:47 PM	#10
KeptinCranky Ace of the Deep Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 1,050 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	Ummm, 20mm AP (that's armor piercing) May not make really big holes in armor but your boat is not armored, so the holes will be bigger, if someone unloads a 20 round magazine into your pressure hull you won't be able to dive until you get the holes fixed, and not only may they be hard to find, you might not be able to fix them. a 1 inch hole could sink your sub, easily. Not to mention permanent damage to secondary but vital systems like batteries. These holes, even if fixed, should also make you very nervous about your boats ability to withstand water pressure, because patches aren't as good as the original hull. I've never been a submariner, nor am I a naval engineer, but I've watched enough Discovery Channel to have second third and fourth thoughts about diving any depth with anything compromising my pressure hull. IMO it should maybe be even worse to get hit by flak, a near miss bomb may rattle your boat, damage delicate systems, cause plates to buckle and possibly even shake loose an engine but it won't make a hole in the pressure hull. I suggest reading the sections on this in the GWX manual, there's more detail edit: dammit Mush and Goldenrivet beat me to it, and Rivet even found a movie I was going to go searching for now, oh well

12-18-07, 05:52 PM	#11
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	20 MM hispano cannon - which existed in WW2. nobody is going to convince me that this thing cant hurt a U-boat __________________

12-18-07, 06:03 PM	#12
KeptinCranky Ace of the Deep Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 1,050 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	Goldenrivet umm, yep, there's your problem.... :rotfl: If that doesn't convince I don't know what will....