playing war

[ichso]

Hi,
I just stumbled upon one of the most interesting threads so far, having read a LOT at this board

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...t=96988&page=1

Just wanted to add something, but the thread seems to be already closed.

Because most of the answers there had gone in a different direction than I was searching for.
My question would be more in general the morale question of war sims. I would nobody here judge anyone for enjoying playing a nazi-soldier, nor would I do in the case of any other ww2 sim.
The politics behind that aside, I think the thing is more about being able to phase anything out which has to do with killing (in case of SH3 mostly innocent) people and just concentrate on the technical aspects of the war and it's machinery.

I've read that e.g. Falcon 4.0 (this Korea-war flightsim) was supported by the U.S. Airforce (maybe through giving the needed details to make it as realistic as possible - again only the technical aspect). So this had the good side effect for the USAF that a good light was thrown onto itself by creating a nice flying adventure with a complex and well simulated gameplay.

No, this is not the exact same point about SH, but it is a very similar schema I think. Just shipping around a bit, enjoying the sunrise, watching dolphins and from time to time shooting some cargo ships.

It's the whole thing, talking just about 'tonnage' (or as the germans called it back then: 'Schiffsraum') and forgetting about people who have to suffer from it.
And I know, this is just a game, nobody should take those things he plays too seriously, but in fact one just repeats those euphemisms usual war propaganda uses still today.

his is what makes me think, not those stupid, old let-them-rot-in-hell-Nazis from back then, with their stuffed dummy with the funny mustache, shouting some brain-out parols at a stadium full of people -.-

BTW: As sordid, I'm german too, having played subsims since I was 13(?), was about Wolfpack and Silent Service II back then .
I enjoyed SH3 very much, got by concerns described above with that and tried to stay away from this WW2 stuff and such.

A few month ago I came back, just wanted to sail a bit more over a beautifully rendered sea, watching seaguls, and I again ended up shooting harmless freighters and getting chased by DDs. Just couldn't resist

So I'm really not here to judge anybody, just wanted the to here what the rest of think about that, when playing sh3. (The thread from sordid just didn't ask the question I was looking for).

greets, fp
(I wrote way too much, hope anyone has time to read...)

[johan_d]

Its inside man, making war.. somewhere it must be fun

May its he fascination ? the thrills? dunna, but playing it safely from a chair is what I think the most close to a general far away behind the lines.

[MarkShot]

I play both war games (first person flight/sub, tactical, and operational) and business oriented games. I consider these to be intellectual exercises. As a systems person, I can tell you that any game based on real world material to simulate is likely to be more logical, interesting, and have closure than some sci-fi fantasy. So, I think war games offer a good challenge to the player. Finally, they are educational and I have learned more about history through this hobby than school ever taught me.

But these are only games to me. I am thankful that I have never stood on a hot battlefield, never been shot at, and never had the chance to shoot or take someone elses life. I am not pacifist, but I know that I am lucky to not know the horrors of war and that I owe a debt to the young men and women who gave/give their lives for me to have the life I have had.

[Brag]

A good war game will give you a better understanding of the period.

[bigboywooly]

Amen to that

I have learnt soo much from Sh3
Modding helps too as always looking references up etc but all in all its been a great education
And I thought I knew a bit about WW2
How wrong was I

And I have to say this forum is a goldmine of knowledge

Back to the original q

I never see it as that I am playing a Nazi\German
Sure I have Ge voices and always check the flags of the merchants I am sending to the bottom but its an escape - a game - a bit ( lot ) of fun

I never stop to think they are my country men I am sinking etc or about the real horrors on either side

[ichso]

Thing is: what kind of knowledge do you mean, that you have learned at this board and while playing SH ?
The only things a war sim simulates are the tactics, strategies, technologies and such. So simply everything related to warfare itself but that has not very much to do with history. You can learn something about the course of the war, who went there when, who attacked whom when, when came this and that machinery up. But that is nothing which can help prevent such wars in the future, nothing to learn what mistakes must have been made so it could start in the first place.
Most things you can learn from a game like SH is for interest, I know it isn't about history education though
In the end it is still making something fun and adventurous (or whatever this is spelled) of something very cruel out of the past, whether one has this in mind or not.
People who have been concerned more directly by the horrors of war, should think a lot different about all that.

[Schöneboom]

Guten Tag, ichso,

I regard SH3 as more than an intellectual exercise -- yes, there is real satisfaction in doing something difficult, like manual torpedo shooting. But at its best, one can experience genuine emotions, like when watching a very good film (naturlich, you know which one I mean). This includes conflicted emotions: the pleasure of successful patrols & advancing one's career, vs. the dismay at the waste of life on both sides, for a government that one does not admire.

My Kaleun-persona is not just a dumb tool of the Reich; in idle moments I think about the tragic turn of events from the perspective of a German who is not eager to take on the whole world. Having travelled widely in Europe, this Kaleun is familiar with the neighbors, & has no quarrel with them personally. When possible (1939-41) I try to stop to help the survivors, & feel regret when a ship sinks too quickly for her crew to escape. This feeling is soon replaced by the desire to just survive against an enemy that grows ever more powerful. A complex experience, to be in this position, eh?

I suspect it may be easier for non-Germans to do this role-playing -- since we have not been raised with all the emotional baggage of war guilt. Whether one wishes to apply the lessons of the past to the present day or not, that's up to the individual, nicht wahr?

Mach's gut,