Soviet subs tactics

alex1122 · 07-05-17, 08:16 AM

Hi guys,

I have some questions and i hope some of you can answer them.
The soviet subs usually use a lot the active sonar, sometimes even before i have them on my passive sonar. But isn't it risky? They are exposing their location, most of the time too far to find me. Is that the normal tactic for their sub?

Thanks,
Alex

Delgard · 07-05-17, 08:25 AM

I don't know that it is a continuous use. But, a sub out forward in support of a convoy or a capital vessel (picket duty) would be quicker to light up, I'd think.

I got the impression that western boats were 10-15% quieter, so if the Capt. has a feeling...

caine007 · 07-05-17, 07:13 PM

It's pretty much your only tactic if you're in an old noisy boat with inferior sonar which goes for a lot of Soviet subs. You'll find however that the more modern, quieter subs like the Kilo's tend to stay very quiet indeed.

It's also a reasonable tactic to use if you're pretty sure something is out there that's detected you but you haven't detected it.

Shadow · 07-05-17, 07:44 PM

It doesn't seem to be working very well for the Soviets, but personally I've used similar tactics driving a Skipjack in '68.

Sometimes the passive just doesn't cut it, particularly when fighting other submarines (especially those damned diesels), and you want to daringly bait the enemy to fire at you and reveal its general position. Then you literally charge at them, getting out of the torp's way and closing the distance with the attacker.

You have to be very careful, though: if you're pinging around and the enemy happens to be lurking in your baffles, you won't realize they've fired at you until the fish is breathing down your neck. Sometimes even too late for any meaningful evasion to take place. That cost me the USS Scamp.

Shadriss · 07-08-17, 12:17 AM

In the era that we're talking about (the 80s) the US had a significant acoustic advantage over the Soviets (until John Walker happened... scumbag). The VICTORS/DELTAS were noisy platforms, and US boats would routinely track them from well beyond 20 Kyds on passives alone.

The Russians always suspected it, and John Walker confirmed it for them. The average Soviet skipper assumed that, if he made contact with a US boat, he had already been tracked for several hours or even days.

With that kind of disadvantage, there is no way a Soviet boat would go active as much as these boats do in the game. The surface pukes? Sure. But not the subs. They had enough disadvantages to work with that going active and making it even harder to stay undetected (the true goal of any submarine) would have been a non-starter.

In game terms, however, it makes sure you don't steer in a random direction and never make contact.

alex1122 · 07-09-17, 09:56 AM

Thanks guys for the answers,

I got your point but from my point of view, if a Soviet submarines begin to use the active sonar from the begining, this takes away the atmosphere that a submarine game, for me, must have: the hunter-prey atmosphere.
The enemy submarine immediately reveals itself using the active sonar and the battle is reduced then to shoot a torpedo (which usually centers and sinks the enemy) and avoids the torpedoes coming, if there is one. I've noticed that often they don't shoot back. I think, correct me if i'm wrong, that if an undetected submarine shoots at you, and you only detected the incoming torpedo, you can fire a torpedo on the bearing of the incoming one. They often don't do it. or maybe they can use their active sonar once the hear the incoming torp, to detect the us sub.

Delgard · 07-09-17, 11:07 AM

I was thinking to define the possible missions that can be considered. Not to argue in any way.

I wonder that if a capital warship, which includes some submarines would be forward escorted. Say a missile boat, cruise or ballistic, when leaving port, an escort would go forward to clear the area of threat forces, ie. US subs. Especially if the capital ship had a disadvantage against the US sub.

With such a disadvantage and the Soviet Commander/Skipper, in open waters commanding a group, had any inkling that a US sub was present, would they want to have a forward element go active to level the playing field?

Kind of an experienced submariner question about tactics of 30-40 years ago.

The next question, "is that modelled"?.

shipkiller1 · 07-09-17, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadriss

In the era that we're talking about (the 80s) the US had a significant acoustic advantage over the Soviets (until John Walker happened... scumbag). The VICTORS/DELTAS were noisy platforms, and US boats would routinely track them from well beyond 20 Kyds on passives alone.

The Russians always suspected it, and John Walker confirmed it for them. The average Soviet skipper assumed that, if he made contact with a US boat, he had already been tracked for several hours or even days.

With that kind of disadvantage, there is no way a Soviet boat would go active as much as these boats do in the game. The surface pukes? Sure. But not the subs. They had enough disadvantages to work with that going active and making it even harder to stay undetected (the true goal of any submarine) would have been a non-starter.

In game terms, however, it makes sure you don't steer in a random direction and never make contact.

Spoken like a true boomer sailor...

I made twelve deployments up north and yes, they really might employ active. Especially during a baffle clear...
Now though, with better sensors afforded to them, no so much.

But as you know, active is not the 'God like' sensor most people think it is...

FTCS(SS/SW)
1980-2004

Oh, I was also qualified Sonar Sup....

denis_469 · 07-10-17, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alex1122

Hi guys,

I have some questions and i hope some of you can answer them.
The soviet subs usually use a lot the active sonar, sometimes even before i have them on my passive sonar. But isn't it risky? They are exposing their location, most of the time too far to find me. Is that the normal tactic for their sub?

Thanks,
Alex

Active mode for range detection for launch A/S missile "Viyuga". In elderly time our subs can not have range for launch a/s missile in passive mode and need 1 -2 ping for range. For torpedoes not need use sonar in active mode. About "Viyuga" you can read: http://sovpl.forum24.ru/?1-4-20-00000083-000-0-0#003 It is soviet analog US a/s missile "Subroc".

609_Avatar · 07-10-17, 11:15 AM

Wow, Kapitan, that was quite the informative post! Thank you very much for sharing all that, great reading and very helpful. S! sir!

07-05-17, 08:16 AM	#1
alex1122 Nub Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Italy Posts: 2 Downloads: 177 Uploads: 0	Soviet subs tactics Hi guys, I have some questions and i hope some of you can answer them. The soviet subs usually use a lot the active sonar, sometimes even before i have them on my passive sonar. But isn't it risky? They are exposing their location, most of the time too far to find me. Is that the normal tactic for their sub? Thanks, Alex

07-05-17, 07:44 PM	#4
Shadow Torpedoman Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Buenos Aires Posts: 112 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 2	It doesn't seem to be working very well for the Soviets, but personally I've used similar tactics driving a Skipjack in '68. Sometimes the passive just doesn't cut it, particularly when fighting other submarines (especially those damned diesels), and you want to daringly bait the enemy to fire at you and reveal its general position. Then you literally charge at them, getting out of the torp's way and closing the distance with the attacker. You have to be very careful, though: if you're pinging around and the enemy happens to be lurking in your baffles, you won't realize they've fired at you until the fish is breathing down your neck. Sometimes even too late for any meaningful evasion to take place. That cost me the USS Scamp. __________________ Shadow's Cold Waters mods (JSGME-friendly) = Longer Campaigns: Marathon Edition = 500-yard MAD range

07-08-17, 12:17 AM	#5
Shadriss A-ganger Join Date: May 2009 Location: Hooper, UT Posts: 80 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 0	In the era that we're talking about (the 80s) the US had a significant acoustic advantage over the Soviets (until John Walker happened... scumbag). The VICTORS/DELTAS were noisy platforms, and US boats would routinely track them from well beyond 20 Kyds on passives alone. The Russians always suspected it, and John Walker confirmed it for them. The average Soviet skipper assumed that, if he made contact with a US boat, he had already been tracked for several hours or even days. With that kind of disadvantage, there is no way a Soviet boat would go active as much as these boats do in the game. The surface pukes? Sure. But not the subs. They had enough disadvantages to work with that going active and making it even harder to stay undetected (the true goal of any submarine) would have been a non-starter. In game terms, however, it makes sure you don't steer in a random direction and never make contact. __________________ STS1(SS) USN (Ret) : 1997 - 2017 USS MICHIGAN (SSBN-727 BLUE) USS MONTPELIER (SSN-765) IMF PACNORWEST USS ALASKA (SSBN-732 GOLD) USS ALABAMA (SSBN-731 GOLD) NAVAL OCEAN PROCESSING FACILITY, WHIDBEY ISLAND USS TENNESSEE (SSBN-734 GOLD)

07-10-17, 11:15 AM	#10
609_Avatar Watch Officer Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: 3rd Planet From The Sun Posts: 345 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	Wow, Kapitan, that was quite the informative post! Thank you very much for sharing all that, great reading and very helpful. S! sir! __________________ Avatar

07-05-17, 08:25 AM	#2
Delgard Captain Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: AZ & DC Posts: 487 Downloads: 48 Uploads: 0	I don't know that it is a continuous use. But, a sub out forward in support of a convoy or a capital vessel (picket duty) would be quicker to light up, I'd think. I got the impression that western boats were 10-15% quieter, so if the Capt. has a feeling...

07-05-17, 07:13 PM	#3
caine007 A-ganger Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 72 Downloads: 26 Uploads: 0	It's pretty much your only tactic if you're in an old noisy boat with inferior sonar which goes for a lot of Soviet subs. You'll find however that the more modern, quieter subs like the Kilo's tend to stay very quiet indeed. It's also a reasonable tactic to use if you're pretty sure something is out there that's detected you but you haven't detected it.

07-09-17, 09:56 AM	#6
alex1122 Nub Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Italy Posts: 2 Downloads: 177 Uploads: 0	Thanks guys for the answers, I got your point but from my point of view, if a Soviet submarines begin to use the active sonar from the begining, this takes away the atmosphere that a submarine game, for me, must have: the hunter-prey atmosphere. The enemy submarine immediately reveals itself using the active sonar and the battle is reduced then to shoot a torpedo (which usually centers and sinks the enemy) and avoids the torpedoes coming, if there is one. I've noticed that often they don't shoot back. I think, correct me if i'm wrong, that if an undetected submarine shoots at you, and you only detected the incoming torpedo, you can fire a torpedo on the bearing of the incoming one. They often don't do it. or maybe they can use their active sonar once the hear the incoming torp, to detect the us sub.

07-09-17, 11:07 AM	#7
Delgard Captain Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: AZ & DC Posts: 487 Downloads: 48 Uploads: 0	I was thinking to define the possible missions that can be considered. Not to argue in any way. I wonder that if a capital warship, which includes some submarines would be forward escorted. Say a missile boat, cruise or ballistic, when leaving port, an escort would go forward to clear the area of threat forces, ie. US subs. Especially if the capital ship had a disadvantage against the US sub. With such a disadvantage and the Soviet Commander/Skipper, in open waters commanding a group, had any inkling that a US sub was present, would they want to have a forward element go active to level the playing field? Kind of an experienced submariner question about tactics of 30-40 years ago. The next question, "is that modelled"?.