[REL] Real Fleet Boat - Page 13

perisher · 05-01-07, 04:09 AM

We could argue about rates of fire until the cows come home. I have seen to written down that the 5.25 inch submarine gun could fire between 10 and 15 rounds a minute. I am sure that it could, with a well trained and practised crew while tied up along side in harbour and with the ammunition stacked ready. At sea it would be a different ball game. The boat is pitching and rolling, seas may be breaking across the deck. The captain isn't going to want to open the fore hatch in anything more than a dead calm. The crew have to go through the conning tower to man the gun. The gun has to be made ready, tompion removed, locks removed; on most guns the sights are removed before diving, so they have to be replaced. Ammunition has to be passed. Some US submarine classes had ready use lockers in the tower superstructure and water-tight ammunition chutes by the guns, but others would have to pass the rounds by hand up the tower and down again. No 10 to 15 rounds a minute now.

Personal experience, on RN 4.5 inch guns, is that a well trained and well practised crew could manage 15 rounds per minute, where as a gash crew of signalmen (like myself) and other non-gunners was only capable of about 7 or 8 per minute. That was in an enclosed power operated turret with the guns being aimed from the director tower.

Our submarine gun crew has no protection from the elements, no direct ammunition feed from the magazine and they have to aim the gun themselves. They would have been well trained but they would not be well practised (except late in the war, when the guns were used more). I would think that once the gun was cleared for action, by using the ready use ammunition, maybe 5 or 6 rounds a minute for the first two minutes, but once the ready use has been used the rate would slow to 3 or 4 a minute, in good sea conditions.

My personal preference in the game is a setting of 3 rounds per minute.

How do you set that rate? Well first you go here http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...light=tutorial

Fish40 · 05-01-07, 04:50 AM

I've released it as 1.22. The feature that's added is the slow smoke mod.

__________________
Tremendous!

That was quick! This just gets better and better! The only problem now is, I've already started a patrol with 1.21. I guess I'm gonna have to wait alittle longer.

Thanks again Beery!

Beery · 05-01-07, 04:56 AM

On the issue of the S-class maintaining depth and other similar sub handling issues, players may want to try replacing the "Waves attenuation value - it's 0.01 in RFB 1.22 and it was 0.75 with stock SH4. See if that makes a difference. If so it's back to the drawing board for the flying sub issue.

On deck guns, this is always a controversial issue. In RUb/SH3 we cut back reload times to between 50 seconds for Type VIIs and 75 seconds for Type IXs. The figures were based on real 'in combat' load times taken from two or three well-recorded gunnery sessions. As Perisher says, rates of fire listed for guns in books are fantasies - they are nowhere near realistic because the guns are test fired in better-than-perfect conditions. For RFB I haven't found any specific gunnery info, so what I did was use the German info and estimate based on the differences between a German U-boat and a US sub. US subs used more crew and had a better set-up for loading shells, but the guns themselves were much the same. The only real data I have for US sub-type guns is from a merchantman firing a similar gun to the sub's 4" gun, and that only confirms the one minute per round rate of fire. If anything I've given the sub guns a more liberal rate of fire than was likely to have been the case in a real battle.

Basically, I feel simulation-oriented players ought to try to get used to RFB's lower firing rate because if players go with a faster firing rate they're basically going to use the deck gun far more frequently, on bigger targets and with far less danger than real sub commanders did. With the overstated damage characteristics of the deck guns that's going to translate into thousands of tons more tonnage per patrol than a real sub could have achieved.

Having said that, in order to get back the stock SH4 guns, simply uninstall the RFB mod using JSGME (if you have it) then remove the Deck_Gun_3_50.sim, Deck_Gun_4_50.sim and Deck_Gun_5_25.sim files from the mod's Data\Library\USSubParts folder and reinstall the mod.

perisher · 05-01-07, 05:55 AM

I have only been involved in the sinking of one ship by gun and torpedo. It was in peacetime and no one was shooting back. Back in '73 a German flagged merchant ship of about 7,000 tons was abandoned, adrift, and on fire in the North Sea. It was a danger to shipping and to some nearby gas production platforms. My ship was ordered to sink it. We were a minesweeper with a 40mm Bofors for a main gun. We had no intention of using the gun, the plan was to board and blow her condenser induction pipes with demolition charges. However the fire was too intense and we could not board. We signalled for help and while we were waiting, and just for the hell of it, we tried the Bofors anyway, from 2000 yards. We got a lot of hits and may have eventually sunk her but it would have taken a very long time, several hours, I guess. It was difficult to hit the waterline, shots aimed too high would hit the hull but shots aimed too low would ricochet off in all directions, but usually over the target. Help arrived in a rather spectacular fashion when one of Her Majesty's fleet submarines suddenly popped to the surface. He fired a torpedo at the almost stationary target from about 2,500 yards on the surface, and much to our amusement, missed:rotfl: . Second shot was MOT, a great column of water, a very big bang and the ship was gone. Never found the first torpedo, it may have eventually hit Denmark.

Anyway my point is, small guns are not very good for sinking ships. In wartime would a ship that was small enough to sink with the gun be worth risking the submarine for? Remember the other guy only has to puncture your pressure hull and you cease to be a submarine. Of course the game gives no credit for damaged enemies so it encourages you to go for a kill every time. In reality the powers that be would probably censure a captain for using the gun, if it put the boat at risk.

stall84 · 05-01-07, 07:28 AM

Thanks Perisher... Check your PM's please

stall84 · 05-01-07, 08:32 AM

Is anyone noticing a CTD when going from navigation map (typically) to the bridge?

Its happening to me often, but not always...

help?

lumat83 · 05-01-07, 09:19 AM

I've tested the mod during 2 missions. Many good things :p but I've a problem with IA.

I attacked a convoy and the escort destroyers did not have many reactions. One has stopped and search a few minutes with its projector. the other has moved a little around me but never used its sonar. No ping and I could reloaded my torpedoes quietly at scope depth.

For the time, I have the impression that the IA is a little weak no ?

I hope you understand my english

Bane · 05-01-07, 09:56 AM

So for those of us that haven't followed this mod from the beginning... what the hell does it do? I see the changes from the last version listed in the first post, but that's it.

Did I miss something or is there someplace I can read more information?

TripleDaddy · 05-01-07, 10:53 AM

Quote:

On the issue of the S-class maintaining depth and other similar sub handling issues, players may want to try replacing the "Waves attenuation value - it's 0.01 in RFB 1.22 and it was 0.75 with stock SH4. See if that makes a difference. If so it's back to the drawing board for the flying sub issue.

Unfortunately, that did the trick. I think we just need to continue testing values until we find one that reduces the flying boat without making the boat unstable. Since the game doesn't actually model wave action, I don't think it will ever completely go away.

bruschi sauro · 05-01-07, 12:59 PM

Well done Mate, this mod work fine..

Beery · 05-01-07, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bane

So for those of us that haven't followed this mod from the beginning... what the hell does it do? I see the changes from the last version listed in the first post, but that's it.

Did I miss something or is there someplace I can read more information?

I'll put the whole readme up.

Bane · 05-01-07, 01:35 PM

I see it. Thanks much!

Beery · 05-01-07, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TripleDaddy

Unfortunately, that did the trick. I think we just need to continue testing values until we find one that reduces the flying boat without making the boat unstable. Since the game doesn't actually model wave action, I don't think it will ever completely go away.

Yeah. I'll see if I can find a happy medium. Other threads have suggested 0.03. I'll try that first.

ZaPPPa · 05-01-07, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beery

On the issue of the S-class maintaining depth and other similar sub handling issues, players may want to try replacing the "Waves attenuation value - it's 0.01 in RFB 1.22 and it was 0.75 with stock SH4. See if that makes a difference. If so it's back to the drawing board for the flying sub issue.

Be warned that any value below 0.75 will create problems with compressed air draining fast when you are at periscope depth. You won't be able to be at periscope depth for more than four hours.

This 'bug' discovered a while ago and a the solution was found by 602Sqn_Puff in this thread:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=113316

Beery · 05-01-07, 01:45 PM

[quote=ZaPPPa]Be warned that any value below 0.75 will create problems with compressed air draining fast when you are at periscope depth. You won't be able to be at periscope depth for more than four hours.]

That's weird, 'cos I routinely run at periscope depth for 10 hours or more at a time and I've never experienced this - not even after reducing the Waves attenuation to 0.01.

05-01-07, 04:09 AM	#181
perisher Frogman Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: England Posts: 300 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	We could argue about rates of fire until the cows come home. I have seen to written down that the 5.25 inch submarine gun could fire between 10 and 15 rounds a minute. I am sure that it could, with a well trained and practised crew while tied up along side in harbour and with the ammunition stacked ready. At sea it would be a different ball game. The boat is pitching and rolling, seas may be breaking across the deck. The captain isn't going to want to open the fore hatch in anything more than a dead calm. The crew have to go through the conning tower to man the gun. The gun has to be made ready, tompion removed, locks removed; on most guns the sights are removed before diving, so they have to be replaced. Ammunition has to be passed. Some US submarine classes had ready use lockers in the tower superstructure and water-tight ammunition chutes by the guns, but others would have to pass the rounds by hand up the tower and down again. No 10 to 15 rounds a minute now. Personal experience, on RN 4.5 inch guns, is that a well trained and well practised crew could manage 15 rounds per minute, where as a gash crew of signalmen (like myself) and other non-gunners was only capable of about 7 or 8 per minute. That was in an enclosed power operated turret with the guns being aimed from the director tower. Our submarine gun crew has no protection from the elements, no direct ammunition feed from the magazine and they have to aim the gun themselves. They would have been well trained but they would not be well practised (except late in the war, when the guns were used more). I would think that once the gun was cleared for action, by using the ready use ammunition, maybe 5 or 6 rounds a minute for the first two minutes, but once the ready use has been used the rate would slow to 3 or 4 a minute, in good sea conditions. My personal preference in the game is a setting of 3 rounds per minute. How do you set that rate? Well first you go here http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...light=tutorial __________________ "Pitt was the greatest fool who ever lived to encourage a mode of war which they who commanded the seas did not want, and which, if successful, would deprive them of it." Earl St.Vincent (allegedly)

05-01-07, 04:56 AM	#183
Beery Admiral Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA (but still a Yorkshireman at heart - tha can allus tell a Yorkshireman...) Posts: 2,497 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	On the issue of the S-class maintaining depth and other similar sub handling issues, players may want to try replacing the "Waves attenuation value - it's 0.01 in RFB 1.22 and it was 0.75 with stock SH4. See if that makes a difference. If so it's back to the drawing board for the flying sub issue. On deck guns, this is always a controversial issue. In RUb/SH3 we cut back reload times to between 50 seconds for Type VIIs and 75 seconds for Type IXs. The figures were based on real 'in combat' load times taken from two or three well-recorded gunnery sessions. As Perisher says, rates of fire listed for guns in books are fantasies - they are nowhere near realistic because the guns are test fired in better-than-perfect conditions. For RFB I haven't found any specific gunnery info, so what I did was use the German info and estimate based on the differences between a German U-boat and a US sub. US subs used more crew and had a better set-up for loading shells, but the guns themselves were much the same. The only real data I have for US sub-type guns is from a merchantman firing a similar gun to the sub's 4" gun, and that only confirms the one minute per round rate of fire. If anything I've given the sub guns a more liberal rate of fire than was likely to have been the case in a real battle. Basically, I feel simulation-oriented players ought to try to get used to RFB's lower firing rate because if players go with a faster firing rate they're basically going to use the deck gun far more frequently, on bigger targets and with far less danger than real sub commanders did. With the overstated damage characteristics of the deck guns that's going to translate into thousands of tons more tonnage per patrol than a real sub could have achieved. Having said that, in order to get back the stock SH4 guns, simply uninstall the RFB mod using JSGME (if you have it) then remove the Deck_Gun_3_50.sim, Deck_Gun_4_50.sim and Deck_Gun_5_25.sim files from the mod's Data\Library\USSubParts folder and reinstall the mod. __________________ "More mysterious. Yeah. I'll just try to think, 'Where the hell's the whiskey?'" - Bob Harris, Lost in Translation. "Anyrooad up, ah'll si thi" - Missen.

05-01-07, 05:55 AM	#184
perisher Frogman Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: England Posts: 300 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	I have only been involved in the sinking of one ship by gun and torpedo. It was in peacetime and no one was shooting back. Back in '73 a German flagged merchant ship of about 7,000 tons was abandoned, adrift, and on fire in the North Sea. It was a danger to shipping and to some nearby gas production platforms. My ship was ordered to sink it. We were a minesweeper with a 40mm Bofors for a main gun. We had no intention of using the gun, the plan was to board and blow her condenser induction pipes with demolition charges. However the fire was too intense and we could not board. We signalled for help and while we were waiting, and just for the hell of it, we tried the Bofors anyway, from 2000 yards. We got a lot of hits and may have eventually sunk her but it would have taken a very long time, several hours, I guess. It was difficult to hit the waterline, shots aimed too high would hit the hull but shots aimed too low would ricochet off in all directions, but usually over the target. Help arrived in a rather spectacular fashion when one of Her Majesty's fleet submarines suddenly popped to the surface. He fired a torpedo at the almost stationary target from about 2,500 yards on the surface, and much to our amusement, missed:rotfl: . Second shot was MOT, a great column of water, a very big bang and the ship was gone. Never found the first torpedo, it may have eventually hit Denmark. Anyway my point is, small guns are not very good for sinking ships. In wartime would a ship that was small enough to sink with the gun be worth risking the submarine for? Remember the other guy only has to puncture your pressure hull and you cease to be a submarine. Of course the game gives no credit for damaged enemies so it encourages you to go for a kill every time. In reality the powers that be would probably censure a captain for using the gun, if it put the boat at risk. __________________ "Pitt was the greatest fool who ever lived to encourage a mode of war which they who commanded the seas did not want, and which, if successful, would deprive them of it." Earl St.Vincent (allegedly)

05-01-07, 01:45 PM	#195
Beery Admiral Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA (but still a Yorkshireman at heart - tha can allus tell a Yorkshireman...) Posts: 2,497 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	[quote=ZaPPPa]Be warned that any value below 0.75 will create problems with compressed air draining fast when you are at periscope depth. You won't be able to be at periscope depth for more than four hours.] That's weird, 'cos I routinely run at periscope depth for 10 hours or more at a time and I've never experienced this - not even after reducing the Waves attenuation to 0.01. __________________ "More mysterious. Yeah. I'll just try to think, 'Where the hell's the whiskey?'" - Bob Harris, Lost in Translation. "Anyrooad up, ah'll si thi" - Missen.

05-01-07, 04:50 AM	#182
Fish40 The Old Man Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Yonkers, NY U.S.A. Posts: 1,507 Downloads: 154 Uploads: 0	I've released it as 1.22. The feature that's added is the slow smoke mod. __________________ Tremendous! That was quick! This just gets better and better! The only problem now is, I've already started a patrol with 1.21. I guess I'm gonna have to wait alittle longer. Thanks again Beery!

05-01-07, 07:28 AM	#185
stall84 Nub Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 3 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Thanks Perisher... Check your PM's please

05-01-07, 08:32 AM	#186
stall84 Nub Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 3 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Is anyone noticing a CTD when going from navigation map (typically) to the bridge? Its happening to me often, but not always... help?

05-01-07, 09:19 AM	#187
lumat83 Frogman Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 307 Downloads: 121 Uploads: 0	I've tested the mod during 2 missions. Many good things :p but I've a problem with IA. I attacked a convoy and the escort destroyers did not have many reactions. One has stopped and search a few minutes with its projector. the other has moved a little around me but never used its sonar. No ping and I could reloaded my torpedoes quietly at scope depth. For the time, I have the impression that the IA is a little weak no ? I hope you understand my english

05-01-07, 09:56 AM	#188
Bane Torpedoman Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 119 Downloads: 33 Uploads: 0	So for those of us that haven't followed this mod from the beginning... what the hell does it do? I see the changes from the last version listed in the first post, but that's it. Did I miss something or is there someplace I can read more information?

05-01-07, 12:59 PM	#190
bruschi sauro Frogman Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Florence Italy Posts: 307 Downloads: 64 Uploads: 0	Well done Mate, this mod work fine..

05-01-07, 01:35 PM	#192
Bane Torpedoman Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 119 Downloads: 33 Uploads: 0	I see it. Thanks much!