Who had the best submarines in wwII?

[Freiwillige]

Excluding the Type XXI which is the clear winner! Before that type what was the differance between Japanese, American, German, British and Italian subs?

I know alot about U-boats but nothing much about any of the others.

It does seem that the American subs were huge in comparison to even the type IX Based on pictures from SH IV.

So Fire away, WHichs subs were better and which were worse and why.

The better subs were the ones that made it home.
The ones that made it home were better because they came home alive.

The ones that didn't make it home were worse. For obvious reasons.


Do I win a prize?

[KeptinCranky]

Congratz you win the flawless logic award don't spend it all in one place...

It's a tough debate, some countries had lots of different subs with some especially good but others very bad (Japan) and some other had relatively ok subs but a whole lot (USA, Germany) it's mostly in how you use them though, and looked at it that way the US and Germany come out on top...

[Torplexed]

It's difficult to compare subs of different nationalities, since the respective nations often had different needs in mind due to geography or doctrine. The large US fleet type was originally meant to be scout sub for the battle fleet, but turned out also to be an excellent solitary raider for the vast distances of the Pacific for which it was designed. The German Type VII has horribly cramped but was ideal in the North Atlantic where the distances to patrol areas were shorter and it's slim sonar profile was the margin between life and death in many a depth-charging. The small British 'U' type was ideal for the Mediterranean but not really of use elsewhere due to low endurance. The British had other subs for that purpose tho.

The Japanese subs also were designed for the Pacific. They were large and had excellent endurance, and often scout planes, but weren't deep deep divers and performed sluggishly underwater. Japanese subs suffered primarily from a doctrine that emphasized them as part of the battlefleet and their job was seen as going after other warships. The Japanese never really developed an effective merchant sinking program.

Italian subs. Big conning towers. Poor doctrine. Probably excellent food tho.

[joegrundman]

Also you have to bear in mind the changing times. Technological progress was huge between 1939 and 1945.

The type VII may have been the best all-rounder by the turn of 1940, but was more or less obsolete by 1943

[Brag]

When it came to meet operational requirements of the time. the Type IX was probably the best.

I don't know how well would have the American Fleet type performed against the Royal Navy.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by privateer

The better subs were the ones that made it home.
The ones that made it home were better because they came home alive.

The ones that didn't make it home were worse. For obvious reasons.


Do I win a prize?

Although this might look like strange logic on the surface, in retrospect, it is not really. Particularly this line, 'the ones that made it home'. What caused a submarine not to make it home? The submarine itself or the crew? The uboat/fleet boat is only as good as its crew. Other than that, it is a cold steel hull in the water. It knows nothing and does not think for itself. So, it is not a comparison of which boat is better. All boats are great boats in the right hands. Just like a race car can only win if manned by the correct driver. All crews were aggressive, daring and sometimes depended on luck to bring the crew and boat through. It is all about the crew that makes the machine a awesome tool for which it was made. Let's face it, throw the whole lot of us in this thread in any of the WW2 designed boats for a patrol right now, we probably would not make it out of the harbor let alone get underway from the dock. It was all about training, working as a team, thinking ahead, understanding your actions or inactions can doom/save the entire crew. The leadership in the boat had to be top notch and most if not all were. So, the TypeII, S class, up to the XXI/Tench class were all great boats if used correctly and to the best of that particular boats ability.

[Elmer Kosterman]

One thing US boats had in WWII that the Germans didn't was a torpedo computer that could update solutions while the submarine itself was manouvering.

[Grayson02sept1980]

I have to apologize... the Russians quite had some different Subs....
How "good" or "not good" they were... I cannot say.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...orld_War_2_Era

But that would be something for a Mod... the Russion subs :hmm:

[Penelope_Grey]

See... the word "best" is very up in the air even at the lol... best of times.

There are always going to be "fanboys" in every walk of life, though I prefer the U-Boat I like to believe that I'm not so jaded that if somebody asked me a question, and fleet boat was the right answer, I would give them that answer.

That is the mark of a true fan, giving the right answer, even if you don't like that answer.

[msalama]

But that would be something for a Mod... the Russion subs :hmm:

Yah, that would rock. Could be difficult to implement, though, because Russian sub warfare during WWII is a subject no-one seems to know anything about, at least in the West...

Gotta read this methinks: http://uboat.net/books/reviews.html/title/2247

[jorgeneo560]

well, i think that is something that will never know, i liked more the german subs, but thank god, that the allys win the war, i think if germany has more time and resource to the xxi develop, i think that balao or gato class will be appear a toys against the xxi type and the atlantic war could finish in diferent way, and it's true the aws sistems of the us subs make the diference, like the german torpedo (g7e i think the name is) acoustic homing head (great for blow some nasty destroyers in attack run in sh3 ), but if we can make sub vs sub, i think that us subs wins, not becouse are better subs, i think that could won becouse the aws and computer solution system, a german sub dosent had chance.
But like a sub, i prefer the german, becouse had bether hulls, and are pretty :P, anyway , i want a sh5 with soviet subs!, that would be awsome :P

[onelifecrisis]

just shoot me now and end the pain

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Originally Posted by Mikhayl

..."all you need is good men"

Amen to that.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Freiwillige

Excluding the Type XXI which is the clear winner!

Well let’s not just assume that the Type XXI is the clear hands down winner here.

I reference Clay Blair’s 1996 book “Hitler’s U-Boats” in two volumes.

Specifically I would like to quote from the Forward of the book where Mr. Blair discusses the United States’ evaluation of the U-2513 Type XXI Uboat. While 118 of the Type XXI boats were constructed, I believe only two (U2511 and U3008) had combat patrols.

From the Blair book

“In the classified report [the American evaluators] sent to the Chief of Naval Operations, dated July 1946, they wrote that while the Type XXI had many desirable features that should be exploited, it also had many grave design and manufacturing faults. The clear implication was that owning to these faults, the XXI could not have made a big difference in the Battle of the Atlantic. Among the major faults the Americans enumerated:

Poor Structural Integrity.

Hurriedly prefabricated in thirty-two different factories that had little or no experience in submarine building, the eight major hull sections of the type XXi were crudely made and did not fit together properly. Therefore the pressure hull was weak and not capable of withstanding sea pressure at great depths or the explosions of close depth charges. The Germans reported that in their structural tests, the hull failed at a simulated depth of 900 feet. The British reported failure at 800 feet, less than the failure depth of the conventional German U-Boats.

Underpowered Diesel Engines

The new model, six-cylinder diesels were fitted with superchargers to generate the required horsepower. The system was so poorly designed and manufactured that the superchargers could not be used. This failure reduced the generated horsepower by almost half: From 2,000 to 1,200, leaving the Type XII ruinously underpowered. Consequently, the maximum surface speed was only 15.6 knots, less than any ocean going U-boat built during the war and slightly slower than the corvette convoy-escort vessel. The reduction in horsepower also substantially increased the time required to carry out a full battery charge.

Impractical Hydraulic System

The main lines, accumulators, cylinders, and pistons of the hydraulic gear or operating the diving planes, rudders, torpedo tube outer doors, and antiaircraft gun turrets on the bridge were too complex and delicate and located outside the pressure hull. This gear was therefore subject to saltwater leakage, corrosion, and enemy weaponry. It could not be repaired from inside the pressure hull.

Imperfect and Hazardous Snorkel

Even in moderate seas, the mast dunked often, automatically closing the air intake and exhaust ports. Even so, salt water poured into the ship’s bilges and had to be discharged overboard continuously with noisy pumps. More over, during these shutdowns, the diesels dangerously sucked air from inside the boat and deadly exhaust gas backed up, causing not only headaches and eye discomfort, but also serious respiratory illnesses. Snorkeling in the Type XXI was therefore a nightmarish experience to be minimized to the greatest extent possible.” End of quote

So on paper the Type XXI should have been the best submarine of the time. If the Germans had the proper manufacturing capability the problems with the pressure hull and the diesel engines could have been fixed. The design of the hydraulic system being outside of the pressure hull is, in my opinion, a bad idea, just for the reasons listed in the Blair book.

Did the Type XXI have a reputation that was greater than the reality?

In the 1995 book “Count not the dead: The popular image of the German Submarine” Michael L. Hadley wrote “During both wars and during the inter-war years as well, the U-boat was mythologized more than any other weapon of war.”

Perhaps the greatest capability of the Type XXI was the myth of the Type XXI.

Since only two of them were used in combat (if memory serves me correctly) we will never know how effective the Type XXI would have truly been.

I think that a good Type VIIC or IXD2 might have been a better all around boat.