US Politics Thread 2016-2020

[Buddahaid]

Sure, I didn't say it doesn't happen and that there are no corrupt police officers, or just plain misguided police officers. I'm saying that for the most part, they are people who want to make a difference in a high risk low paying job who get S**t on everyday for not being perfect by people who are anything but perfect angels of righteousness.

Let me ask you, have you ever made a mistake doing your job? Are you perfect? Are you willing to put your ass on the line everyday you work?

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

I'm saying that for the most part, they are people who want to make a difference in a high risk low paying job who get S**t on everyday for not being perfect by people who are anything but perfect angels of righteousness.

I never said anything to the contrary. I’m talking about the corrupt ones, not the good ones that I’ve interacted and worked with.

Let me ask you, have you ever made a mistake doing your job?

Yes.

Are you perfect?

No.

Are you willing to put your ass on the line everyday you work?

You do know what firefighting involves, right? Three of us died last fire season. Three American servicemen died helping us. My crew nearly had an overrun. Many will suffer with mental scars for the rest of their lives. Even more had to sacrifice time with loved ones and time at work to spend 12 hours breathing in smoke.

[Buddahaid]

'nuff said.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by MaDef

That is incorrect, Trump sent Federal law enforcement agents to portland to provide security at federal buildings as the Portland police will not.

So there is a difference between federal agents and federal enforcement agents? Trump does not seem to make a difference.

Also: "The crackdown in the liberal bastion of Portland drew widespread criticism and legal challenges as videos surfaced of camouflage-clad officers without clear identification badges using force and unmarked vehicles to arrest protesters without explanation."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-g...-idUSKCN24M2RL

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-g...-idUSKCN24N2U4

https://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFKCN24K0PA

https://www.businessinsider.com/trum...20-7?r=DE&IR=T

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-g...-idUSKCN24I2W5

[Hawk66]

Originally Posted by August

So in other words the American communists are like Junior Varsity of Marxists? That's what they said about isis you know and look what happened.

Seriously the American people have become very sharply divided in the past 20 years and I believe that it's getting closer and closer to coming to a head which which if it pops will not be pretty and we as a nation may not survive it.

What I would like to see before it gets there is a way to identify and thwart foreign meddlers. People talk a lot about Russian interference in the last election but their real efforts (and those of China) are not to support one American candidate over another but rather to egg on both sides past the ability to unite on just about any subject.

Our public discourse, increasingly online, has a constant background noise bringing us down. A low grumble of hate and discontent that is being directed at and against both political sides and maybe in other areas as well. Like the disembodied voice on the edge of a crowd yelling Hit him! or the scandalous bit of gossip that suddenly everyone has heard but nobody can really say where the story came from, it negatively affects the mood and tone of the discussion and the end result is that both sides hate each other and become unwilling to compromise or work together, indeed actively work to destroy the other side completely. This cannot continue for very much longer.

BTW, related to this ("seriously divided"): It would help to recognize that the inequality in the US and the direct/indirect consequences of this is a major issue concerning being divided. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ncome_equality
The US is the only "western" country with a troubling inequality status.
The liberals also have their issues - but it would help if the "conservatives" will recognize in future that putting the Gini index more to greener levels, has noting to do with communism or socialism.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by August

[...] Seriously the American people have become very sharply divided in the past 20 years and I believe that it's getting closer and closer to coming to a head which which if it pops will not be pretty and we as a nation may not survive it.

What I would like to see before it gets there is a way to identify and thwart foreign meddlers. People talk a lot about Russian interference in the last election but their real efforts (and those of China) are not to support one American candidate over another but rather to egg on both sides past the ability to unite on just about any subject.

Our public discourse, increasingly online, has a constant background noise bringing us down. A low grumble of hate and discontent that is being directed at and against both political sides and maybe in other areas as well. Like the disembodied voice on the edge of a crowd yelling Hit him! or the scandalous bit of gossip that suddenly everyone has heard but nobody can really say where the story came from, it negatively affects the mood and tone of the discussion and the end result is that both sides hate each other and become unwilling to compromise or work together, indeed actively work to destroy the other side completely. This cannot continue for very much longer.

QFT. This was quite a good post i think. I agree that no nation can afford to go on like that, also the foreign meddling for desinformation and more diversion is a very real threat, though i would not only blame foreign influence. Inequality, your Potus' 'law and order' methods, upcoming elections and his very special kind of self-portrayal is so absolutely .. ah forget it.

And i is not my intention to always blame the US for all BS happening,
OT here but e.g. Germany continues to be the country with the highest rate of fatal and non-fatal right-wing terrorist attacks. I also wonder if we can go on like that 'just so'.
https://www.radicalrightanalysis.com...ing-terrorism/
https://www.economist.com/europe/202...ight-terrorism

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by u crank

[...]. It is about the video and the behavior of the people in it. Let's ask some simple questions.
Do you condemn the actions of the 'peaceful protesters' in the video?

In the video? Yes. What about the arrest of the peaceful protesters?

Do you think that a democratic state can survive if this kind of violent protest is tolerated?

Yes. Protests and demonstrations are happening in free countries, peaceful/civil and sometimes violent. Do you think that Trump is somehow blind on the right eye of the violent spectrum from "Proud boys" to "Ku klux clan" and their actions? There is a difference between violent protests and terrorism, although Trump prefers to lump it all together and blame it all on the big bad wolf ANTIFA!
"Trump’s announcement on antifa “came as a surprise,” one European security official said. Short for anti-fascist, antifa is more of a loosely defined movement, unlike many far-right groups, which “have not only argued for violent acts against Jews, African Americans and others, but who have acted upon it,” the official said".
From theWashington Post, but quote is from a frustrated european agency.
This was new to me b.t.w.: https://globalnews.ca/news/7082420/r...-canada-study/

Do you think that those who can do something about it, Mayor Ted Wheeler, but don't are derelict in their duty?

Well i admit i do not live there, so i have to rely on information from the media. I condemn violence, but they show more violence vids from incidents than peaceful protesters that have obviously been demonstrating for 50 days, because of sensationalism.

Could it be that the law and order "policy" has something to do with upcoming elections, diversion from a certain virus and its handling, to having it "all under control" and pretending to be the law-and-order abiding man-of-the-street citizen (which Trump is not).

Instead of de-escalation and bringing the situation back to normal with other means than fire and suppression. The mayors said they have it under control, so let them do their thing. They will call for help if they think it is necessary.

[Skybird]

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinio...er-ncna1234600


Tja. Greed over reason.

[u crank]

Originally Posted by Catfish

What about the arrest of the peaceful protesters?

That's a relative term. Is a young white woman calling a black police officer a racist peaceful? I guess so but to what end? I'm not sure these people know what they are doing.

Yes. Protests and demonstrations are happening in free countries, peaceful/civil and sometimes violent.

I disagree. And again to what end? Can you explain exactly what these protesters, both violent and non violent want? The cities of Portland, Minneapolis and dozens of other cities are completly controled by left wing politicians. And they have been for a long time. Are these protesters trying to bring about a change in leadership in their cities? Of course not. This is a political problem disguised as a social problem.

Could it be that the law and order "policy" has something to do with upcoming elections, diversion from a certain virus and its handling, to having it "all under control" and pretending to be the law-and-order abiding man-of-the-street citizen (which Trump is not).

It probably does but it cuts both ways. This is more about Donald Trump than it is about George Floyd. The violent protesters do not represent a broad political spectrum. In fact it is very narrow and probably doesn't represent the overall population.They know exactly what they are doing. They do not want to stop. They want to keep it going. There is a singular reason why politicians like Ted Wheeler won't do anything to stop the violence and distruction. Fear. Any pushback and the protesters react violently. Almost sounds like fascism.

Instead of de-escalation and bringing the situation back to normal with other means than fire and suppression. The mayors said they have it under control, so let them do their thing. They will call for help if they think it is necessary.

None of that seems to be true. The protests have gone on for almost two months. They don't have it under control. They will never call for help until it is to late.

Again I'll ask the question. What do these people want? What is their end goal? And more importantly how do they expect to accomplish it? I don't know and I suspect that they don't either. But it seems to me that what they really need is a change in political leadership.

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by August

So in other words the American communists are like Junior Varsity of Marxists? That's what they said about isis you know and look what happened.

Yeah, but I’ve met American communists, and spoken with them. They’re less like Stalin and more like a caricature.

Seriously the American people have become very sharply divided in the past 20 years and I believe that it's getting closer and closer to coming to a head which which if it pops will not be pretty and we as a nation may not survive it.

What I would like to see before it gets there is a way to identify and thwart foreign meddlers. People talk a lot about Russian interference in the last election but their real efforts (and those of China) are not to support one American candidate over another but rather to egg on both sides past the ability to unite on just about any subject.

Our public discourse, increasingly online, has a constant background noise bringing us down. A low grumble of hate and discontent that is being directed at and against both political sides and maybe in other areas as well. Like the disembodied voice on the edge of a crowd yelling Hit him! or the scandalous bit of gossip that suddenly everyone has heard but nobody can really say where the story came from, it negatively affects the mood and tone of the discussion and the end result is that both sides hate each other and become unwilling to compromise or work together, indeed actively work to destroy the other side completely. This cannot continue for very much longer.

Yep, Democrats and Republicans need to put aside their squabbling and remember that their job is to serve the American people, not to “beat the other side”.

Right now though, based on what I’ve seen and heard, Democrats and Republicans hate each other more than North Korea, which is just ridiculous.

When America is at it’s best, like helping us beat the Nazis, it’s an amazing power for good. I hope that it becomes that again one day.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by u crank

The cities of Portland, Minneapolis and dozens of other cities are completly controled by left wing politicians.

do you echo anything that might cross your neighbouring president's mind?

This is a political problem disguised as a social problem.

No, it is a social problem and a political one. They want basic rights for everyone, without discrimination, no to police brutality, which extends into daily racism being felt everywhere.
Is this "left", is this "communism"?

You are right that the violent protesters do not represent a broad political spectrum. In Germany there are a lot of not-integrated youngsters including fugitives, who just want to raise hell, scrap and riot. I do not think that all this is politically motivated or that they are controlled by anyone.

(OT Although i could understand in the US some may feel a bit.. uneasy with someone like Trump at the helm. Maybe he is not a racist but he sure made friends with some. He does not have any morals that extend beyond himself. To call Trump a racist, he would have to believe in something bigger than his reelection..)

Arrest all violent protesters, you will be astonished how much others are left who will still be on the streets.
The peaceful protesters (and there are a lot more than the violent ones) obviously protest against racism and related police brutality, they say it. So they want to "keep this going" and not stop until they are heard? It is their right according to the first amendment. So also arrest them?

Most are primarily protesting against the local abuse of power, locally, no "system change". They protest against Wheeler who did not do enough to quench police brutality, and (ex)change certain officers. They say so.

Now this protest is being subdued externally, by the very practice they are protesting against. What a great idea to solve underlying problems.

[August]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Maybe he is not a racist but he sure made friends with some.

One could say that his democratic opposition are the true racists in this country. They have made a career of sowing racial division and hatred. They openly consort with racists like Louis Farrakhan and Al Sharpton. They promote the idea that the entire race of light skinned people are inherently racist which is racist in itself.

If they regain power in November they will not attempt to unite the nation but will further divide it and they may discover the nations tipping point and tear us apart for good.

[August]

Originally Posted by Catfish

do you echo anything that might cross your neighbouring president's mind?

You're just dodging his very good point. The local police causing these issues rarely work for Republican mayors. These cities and their local police departments have been 100% controlled by the Democrats in some cases for decades. How does this become Donald Trumps fault? He's a political newcomer who has not even finished his first term yet but I'm supposed to blame him for decades of Democrat mismanagement?

[u crank]

Originally Posted by Catfish

do you echo anything that might cross your neighbouring president's mind?

Ha ha. Trump is not the first person to point this out. If you think it is untrue .. prove it. Some of these cities have been controlled by Democrats for twenty or thirty years. In the city of Minneapolis where Mr. Floyd was killed by a police officer every single elected politician, the mayor, the city council, the chief of police, their represenative in Congress, the Governor and the two Senators are Democrats or from the left. In a democracy we elect politicians to solve problems and make policy that improves the lives of citizens. What have these people done to justify their reelection over and over again. It beats me, how about you?

We are now being told that there is systemic racism and it is everywhere. I looked under my bed but I didn't see it. Again we need to look at those who have power. This problem didn't start with Trump regardless of what CNN says. In the not so distant past the US had a black Democrat President. Why in the eight years of his administration did the system not change?

No, it is a social problem and a political one. They want basic rights for everyone, without discrimination, no to police brutality, which extends into daily racism being felt everywhere.

In the United States of America everyone has basic rights. It has been like that most of my life. There are no discriminatory laws on the books. Police brutality is an issue that has a political solution. Don't hold your breath that Democrat Mayors and Governors are going to do anything more than paint slogans on the street.

As far as 'daily racism being felt everywhere' one has to be a realist. No law, legislation or slogan can change the human heart or mind. I'm not sure what the answer is but knocking down statues, changing sports teams names and rioting in the street is not going to change a single racist's mind.

[MaDef]

Originally Posted by Catfish

So there is a difference between federal agents and federal enforcement agents? Trump does not seem to make a difference.

Also: "The crackdown in the liberal bastion of Portland drew widespread criticism and legal challenges as videos surfaced of camouflage-clad officers without clear identification badges using force and unmarked vehicles to arrest protesters without explanation."

It's convoluted and nuanced but there is, not all federal agents are armed, and those that are, usually have very limited law enforcement powers. For example, the Department of Agriculture has armed officers, yet their jurisdiction pretty much ends at the borders of national parks and monuments.

The problem here is people assume the President sent these officers into Portland to specifically break up these protests and that is not the case. Their primary task is the protection of federal property, they are deployed in the buildings and on the grounds of these properties. They do not engage the protestors until the protestors attempt to vandalize or gain entry to the facilities.

The bigger issue here is these "kids" are crossing the line from civil unrest and legitimate protesting into terrorism and insurgency and if they don't check themselves they may end up dead or in a cell in ADX Florence (Gitmo for U.S. citizens). The Mayor of Portland was involved in the "protest" last night and was Tear gassed for his trouble. That guy is a moron, His job is to find a solution, not exacerbate the issue.