Supplement to SH Survey: What should Ubi do to make SH5 the best?

[TarJak]

Originally Posted by Peto

Add Leigh Lights to aircraft in the Atlantic Theater.

These have been standard in GWX for some time.

[finchOU]

For got to add some nit picky stuff from SH3. As a realism option in the future:

-no "lock scope on target function"...just not realistic.

-no "shes going down" unless it is before the ship is seconds away from disappearing below the waves. I hate when I'm shelling a ship and get the "shes going down" before she really does.

-No targeting reticals (red/yellow triangles)

General stuff:

-a sunken ship map when you get back in port to see where you have sunk ships. Maybe an option to put that on the map in game time?

[Dutchie-one]

Hello Mate

Originally Posted by Contact

German u-boats had the unique look. I would find it very hard to misidentify it with any other sub.

on 28 nov, 1941 the commander of U 95 misidentify an other sub
it was not another U-boat but the O 21 ( Dutch submarine )
when he relized that, torpedo`s where on his way and the boat was sunk.

Greetz Dutchie-one

[Dutchie-one]

Well I hope they put also Dutch Subs, Cruisers and Destroyer`s in it

They did There part too in the Atlantic and the Far East

Greetz Dutchie-one

[Synthfg]

Originally Posted by finchOU

For got to add some nit picky stuff from SH3. As a realism option in the future:

-no "lock scope on target function"...just not realistic.

-no "shes going down" unless it is before the ship is seconds away from disappearing below the waves. I hate when I'm shelling a ship and get the "shes going down" before she really does.

-No targeting reticals (red/yellow triangles)

General stuff:

-a sunken ship map when you get back in port to see where you have sunk ships. Maybe an option to put that on the map in game time?

Or carry over sunken ships as wrecks Several times I have sunk ships in shallow waters on patrol then used the wrecks to help avoid the escorts, Would be good if these wrecks remained for the future so that if I am patrolling that area again I can see and use them under water

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by TarJak

These [Leigh Lights] have been standard in GWX for some time.

Uh yeah, I found that out... the hard way

So happy you guys added that little *improvement*

[difool2]

Am I delusional in thinking that a coop campaign might work? You can have up to 4 (8?) boats on the server; one boat is designated as the leader. He will suggest a time compression setting, all other boats will have to okay that setting, and then off they go into the endless seas. If one drops out of TC, for whatever reason, they all do. Perhaps TC wouldn't be the only bugaboo which would need to be dealt with, just tossing this idea out there...

[PL_Andrev]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Please note any comments, ideas, suggestions, and observations you would like to make about SH5; what would make it great, what mistakes from SH3/SH4 not to repeat, etc.

My and many my friends are played in all SH games as multiplayer...
So, few my ideas now, general for this mode:

At first:
Take care of SH players.. and UBI opinion in players environment!
- Extra paid patches for game (patch 1.5 in "Uboat mission") is really best way to save this idea...
- Fatal work of UBI server! Unstable work or disconnecting players from UBI server (with no other real alternatives to play) means that players who love multigame are not important for UBI...

At second:
Two questions...
Many of us are still playing in SH2/DC.. Why?
Some of us have SH4, but are playing only in SH3... Why?

I want to show why SH2/DC, SH3 and SH4 games are still in love: that is (+) advantages and (-) disadvantages for each product:

SH2/DC multiplayer
+ The ability to to choose any side (axis / allies)
+ The ability to choose any unit by player (SH2: British / Japanese submarine, DC: American / Japanese battleship, French / Italian cruiser)
+ Simple configuration of a LAN and LAN simulation programs (such as Hamachi)
+ Up to 16 players via LAN / Hamachi
- Graphics

SH3 Multiplayer
+ Mod-able game (other units / settings / parameters of the game)
+ Graphics
+ Excellent and stable work on the UBI servers
+ Possibility of creation servers on UBI by a large majority of players (as host)
+ Free support (non-paid patches)
- The inability to play typical naval units, like destroyers, cruisers etc (only implemented by some fan's mods)
- Unstable work through simulating the LAN (f.e. Hamachi)

SH4 Multiplayer
+ Mod-able game (other units / settings / parameters of the game)
+ Excellent graphics (especially with the additional mods, for example Pacific Environment, Trigger Maru)
+ Possibility to play on axis side (only in paid add-on)
+ Randomly missions for multiplayer
- Inability to choose sides in multiplayer mode (axis only in " campaign " mode)
- Unstable work on UBI servers (for example, disconnected from UBI if game will be minimalize to windows taskbar)
- Paid support (patch 1.5 only in extra paid add-on)
- Too simple (boring) play as naval units, like destroyers, cruisers - without cooperative with other naval players / no sub detection
- The inability to play through the LAN (eg Hamachi)

Destroyer Command (naval units)
I understand why UBI doesn't want to continue this game. In fact, we don’t need them. There are many fan mods for SH3, SH4 which compensates this game.
But... we want to be able to play on the surface, gun shooting, torpedo shooting vs enemy units, and shoot depth charges against other players which will play on the subs.Don't create special campaign for naval units - the campaign for uboats will be quite enough to play.
We would like to have support from the UBI only, to play as we want: shoot by guns, torpedoes and depth charges against other players. We love it.

What should have SH5 to be successful as SH3?
In short: the advantages SH2/DC, SH3, SH4, and no of their defects...

General: single player / multiplayer / campaign:
* The ability to play any side (allies / axis)
* The ability to play any submarine, for example German IXC or American Gato class (Add-on for SH4 "Uboat Mission" does not allow you to play the German subs in multiplayer mode) or other additional unit, created by fans.
* The ability to play any nationality (we want to play full modable game, for example as Dutch, on VIIIC type as allies)
* The ability to play any additional submarine unit, designed by fans from all conflict’s side like: the Italian "600", Japanese "Sen-toku", French "Surcouf", Soviet "Staliniec"...
* The ability to play campaign or patrol by submarine or naval unit (without sub detection, only anti-aircraft weapon, torpedo-if possible and gun shooting)

Multiplayer Mode:
* Simple creation stable game as host on UBI server (like SH3)
* Able to generate random missions like in SH4 (great idea!)
* Full cooperation with programs simulating LAN network (Hamachi)
* Up to 16 players by LAN
* Play any scenario (German subs vs. American convoy, British subs vs. Italian battleships, Japan sub vs. American Pacific forces)

Technical support:
* Free patches for all, without differences between game versions (like 1.4 patch for SH4 vs. free 1.4 patch for SH4 and paid 1.5 patch with add on - it killed many SH4 fans...)

High Mod-ability game
* A simple addition new units as new directories, like: one unit - one directory with all data for this unit: parameters (power, speed), images (hull, control room), etc
* Possibility of simple changing the every interior shapes of submarine by the fans
* Easy and simple editing of any parameter entities in text files such as equipment, the sub's maximal depth, speed, battery power, etc.)
* Easy and simple editing equipment parameters (gun power, reliability and number of torpedoes, the number of debrises, range of radar )
* Easy and simple editing sub detection's parameters by the AI (chance of sub's detection as parameters: depth vs. speed vs. distance from submarine)
* Automatic addition of new and modified units to the mission editor (manual editor and automatic multi mission creator)
* Easy and simple editing of fog density / clouds parameter (in SH3 it is done better than SH4, but SH4 have better graphic)
* The ability to change the EACH bitmap of game by the fans (eg sonar room / map navigation / damage panel graphic / periscope head / battery icon)

Naval units (the campaign / multiplayer)
* The ability to use any unit from a naval warship / merchants library
* Use of a single, permanent model of rooms for all types of ships (as DC model), but may be changed by the fans separately for every ship
* The ability of adaptation the control room and other rooms, which may be changed by fans for every ship
* Use in campaign mode / single mission / single patrol only artillery and torpedoes.
* Ability to lock / unlock room for each class (such as sonar, depth charges or torpedoes launcher at battleship or cruiser)

Simplified submarine detection by other units in multiplayer mode:
Passive sonar: localization of sub bearing available only for human player by hydrophone (without AI support). We want to lock bearing of this sound and send to other players which are playing as naval ships.
Sonar active: localization of sub distance only for human player by hydrophone (like distance measurement by a hydrophone in SH4). We want to read distance, lock reading value and send these parameters (estimated position + depth) to the other players which are playing as escort ships.
Attack to enemy submarine: simpler like torpedo attack: choose depth, number of launcher, and manage crew to load bombs to launcher

DRM:
Data security should be the least irritate for users.
The best way to protect your business is checking the unique game-key. The unique key allows to register game for install patches. Only register game allows create server as host.
Unfortunately, creation of clones or illegal copies always will be available. The best way to protect your product is creation of new versions (automatically downloaded patches), which will be able only for registered (with legal keys) users.

Protection way:
UBI must perform only one condition: very popular server to play (like SH3 now). If server find two or more identical game-keys, this key is lock with no possibility for download new patches, creation game as host and playing more than 30 minutes (after that - game is finished). This same situation with games created by LAN (host's machine is checking all clients registration numbers)

This double key is marked by the server UBI as a "illegal" and players have this key cannot be registered, download and use new patches, and creates new servers (as host).
Optional: at the same time, information of illegal version is saved to user's machine, and every next game ends after 30 minutes of play. Try to re-register or download patches from UBI game with this key will be impossible.

Maybe good way is free available "demo version" for all with one weakest submarine and weakest torpedoes, with possibility full but non-saveable mission (f.e attack on small convoy with/without escort), without crew management to faster reload / sub repair.
Demo without mission editor, only with 0% real but with "elite" escort (available only one type of warship) and one type of merchants
Advantages:
+ general "if you want more: register game and download full version and patches"
+ user will know: graphic, AI, how to play as sub or naval unit,
+ user can play full patrol (without save) but only with 2 different enemy units available in the demo
+ user can play only on weakest sub with weakest torpedoes against the best escort
+ to play full career, use other subs/ships, play as multi, download patches register (full version) is needed
+ demo can be only "test" version to find bugs, and take suggestion from players
+ when download mission/game screenshots of all what is absence in demo...

Additional alternative / possibility of multiplayer mode: Air unit (only as simple mode)
- If it will be possible to control naval units, there is nothing to prevent to placing the unit on the 100-1000 meters above the water – create “air” units which can be used by players in multiplayer game to detect and attack detected submarines (for example: SH4 / Trigger Maru mod allows to detect sub on the 20-30 meters depth in a quiet water) or attack enemy naval units. Full control or course control of air units (multiplayer games subs vs. naval or naval vs. naval) will be new for all SH series! (on SH2/DC player can only use naval units, no air)
- In “full control” mode, only simple fly available: no start / landing - reload bombs can be available as torpedo at submarine (need time to reload)
UBI should only:
* Produce only one "standard" cockpit
* Introduce a simple system for aiming bombs, deep charges, torpedoes in accordance with the fundamental principles of physics.
* Develop a model of flight (climb / descent / turns vs. speed / stall

Control of course, would have been done on the basis solely on the basis of commands from the keyboard or a traditional bar control.

Catalogs tree’s proposal:
Simple proposal for a adding new French submarine:
Main Catalog: France
Data: Bitmap of merchants and warships ensigns, (few ensigns: new, use, partially destroyed etc), side: axis / allies, the time of participation in war
Type Catalog: Sarcouf
Data: (no special design for this type, use existing model) bitmaps of IXC
Data parameters: number and guns power, maximum depth 100m, maximal speed 10kt, fuel 110 tons, number of debris 0, no radar etc etc.

In this case, the player is able to play "Sarcouf" French submarines, which is a copy of the German IXC, with a maximum speed 10kt and maximum depth 100m.
The parameters are read automatically by the mission editor, after that "Sarcouf" is automatically available as French submarine.

Most irritate errors in multiplayer game:
When player is killed when surfacing/surfaced - his ship is undestroyable and still attacked by the escort

Damage effects proposal:
More effects when sub is damaged! Steam, fire, smoke, electrical sparkles (sparkles are available when depth charges are exploded), electrical/light problems (only part or all electric bulbs are destroyed – see Petersen’s “Das Boot”) and… water in control/other rooms when rooms are flooded as a result of leaks…

I hope that it are most important things to prepare SH5 as the best sub game for ever...

[Brag]

Navigational ambiguity when unable to get celestial or pilotage fixes.

[mookiemookie]

Allied escorts with towed foxer arrays

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxer

[mookiemookie]

After mid-1944 in the French bases, start the player out with a random amount of fuel oil between 50% and 100% to simulate supply difficulties

[irish1958]

This can be done now with CMDR, if you can figure out how to do it.
(I can't)

[Jimbuna]

Well up to now it looks like the release date has been set back a couple of years

[AG124]

Wish I had more time to post in detail, but I am finishing up packing to go from from law school; busy four months it has been, but I'm finally finished. So anyway, here are a few points of personal importance to me, although pretty much everything has been discussed elsewhere in this thread. Both players and modders know what they want from this series.

- Modability - this has been discussed at length, but it is important for the dev team to realize that even if they do not view a detail as important for modding, someone out here will still want to mod it at some time. Of course, I realize that this all comes down to issues of what the team can practically do with the time and resources available to them, and issues of to how much code they wish to allow us access. I am just asking them to avoid hardcoding elements which can easily be left open.

- Random Merchant Tonnage - Iambecomelife has already pointed this out, but this is always been an important point to me since AoD. SHI and SHII had absolutely no tonnage variation that I can recall (I hated SHII and played only once or twice), and SHIII had only a nominal amount. Thankfully, the dev team added this feature to SHIV merchants, and made is customizable (which is a necessary spect to be preserved in future releases); however, instead of variation a variation rate, I would prefer to be able to set a maximum and minimum tonnage between which a particular ship's tonnage would fall (much as Iambecomelife implied). I.e. I would, for example, prefer a tonnage variation of between 3,000 and 4,000 GRT instead of having a tonnage of 3,500 GRT and adding a variable to it.

- Generic merchant ships instead of mass produced merchants; I think that the dev team has already corrected this in SHIV, but I think it needs reiteration here. Whether we are assigned to the PTO or ATO next release, we should see more typical, generic merchants instead of mass-produced ones which resemble only their own mass-produced classes (choosing real non-mass-produced merchants which hold a generic profile, as in the case of SHIV's Japanese merchants, is perfectly acceptable and is indeed preferable). Of course, some mass-produced vessels (such as Liberty and Victory freighters in the ATO, or Standard Merchants in the PTO) will be necessary, but the latter two models already exist anyway.

- A good, representative roster of warships for different nations - this was another of SHIII's weak points; No US capital warships, no UK CAs, only one DD for Italy, only one UK CV, no French warships except a fill-in Isles class trawler. This was corrected in SHIV, IMO, with the exception of CV classes, the roster of which could have been a little more inclusive on each side (although I understandand the Northop-Grumman settlement terms are to be considered on the US side). I believe that with the number of good models available to the US and UK in SHIII and SHIV will leave the dev team more time to fill in some other roster omissions; I have great faith on this point. (Of course, the community will fill in quite a few of the missing warships eventually, but the more that are included with the stock game, the more that can be built by modders instead...; plus, it feels like good practice to include a good ship roster with one's game anyway, just for the sake of making a more respectable product; also, there may actually be some players out there somewhere who are unaware of mods and modding altogether...).

- TDC - I preferred the TDC in SHIII, whereby one could aim and fire without using the boring automatic firing TDC button (with everything really done by the AI), but not have to actually calculate everything when one either didn't feel like it or did not have the time. SHIV is all-or-nothing in this regard, and I would like to see the greater flexibility of the SHIII system return in SHV.

- Specific ships - If 'tis not too much trouble, please include a whale factory ship in SHV. Also, I assume SHV will not be in the PTO again, but if it is, a Juisen Class Coastal Tanker would please me greatly, plus a Junyo class CVL and Zuiho class CVL, and Nagato class BB on top of the models currently existing. There are others, but I must cease here.

- Also, I will note that I agree with whoever stated that lumber should become a type of deck cargo.

That's all I have time for right now. Let's just see where this goes from here.

[PL_Andrev]

Point which can be modable:

* Crew are killed when CO2 level is higher than 10%

Points which can be changed in specific game parameters:

* Modable signatures (visible/invisible mode independed from each player's settings but depend from current mod / players requirmnet to take these same conditions)

* Possibility to change signatures mode of torpedo/ship owner (turn on signatures) when player is killed (and jumped to observer mode) - this point is the best balance beetwen SH3 and SH4 signature system...

* Game settings: Automatic menagement of crew (as SH4) or by hand (as SH3) - as player request.

* I agree with AG124 opinion, but aiming system in SH4 in not bad. Is better than SH3 because is more natural, but it can be possible shot "where I'm looking now" with auto-distance 1000 or changed "by hand".

* Movable TDC panel and other
In some cases the all periscope menus disturbs with main view. All menus shoud be moveable (TDC, clock, torpedoes panel, torpedo setting panel, recognization book, ship information icons) as player request and automatically moved to new/saved positions at next game.