Supplement to SH Survey: What should Ubi do to make SH5 the best?

[Lionman]

Originally Posted by LukeFF

I could post a very lengthy list, but these are the most important issues to me:

• Crew members that are transferred off the boat after each patrol. This should be especially true for crewmen who have accrued a good amount of experience.
• When the player takes command of a new submarine, it should also come with a new crew (unlike the current situation, where the crew follows the player from sub to sub like a little puppy dog ).
• A proper watch system for each side. While the 3-watch system works just fine for American subs, it's not how it worked for the Germans, who used a two-watch system.
• More strict requirements for moving externally-stowed torpedoes below decks. This includes factors like how rough the sea is and severe penalties for trying to dive while moving a torpedo below decks (such as loss of the torpedo and the handling gear needed to move the torpedo).
• Have the campaign track whether a major warship has been sunk or not. If I sink a Yamato class BB, then the game should remove one of these ships from the "roster," never to be seen again. As a consequence, the campaign engine should compensate accordingly when the ship is due to be generated later in the campaign (e.g., if a convoy calls for two Yamato class BBs, and one has already been sunk, then only one will be generated.
• Better evasive maneuvers for lone merchant ships. The current constant-helming routine is very lacking and too predictable.
• Historically correct depth charge settings.
• Proper reporting procedures for radar contacts. "Single contact?" What is it, a ship or an airplane? Is it moving towards us? Moving away? Also, if the radar is a non-directional type (like SD radar) don't report a bearing!
• More commands for the sonarman. The player should be able to select any contact picked up by sonar and order the sonarman to follow it. The nearest merchant/warship contact isn't always the one the player wants to track.
• Similar to the above, but as it relates to the bridge watch: I should be able to select any given ship and ask what the range to it is.
• Ready ammo for the deck gun.
• A deck gun scope that bobs up and down and isn't gyro-stabilized like it is now.
• Reports from the bridge as to when the weather is worsening or improving.
• More authentic damage reports from the crew. Seriously, how does my diving officer know our deck gun has been damaged when we're 250 feet below the surface? Deck mounted items (guns, radar antennas, radar detectors), simply put, should only be reported as damaged when the boat is on the surface.
• Aircraft that fly and attack like ASW aircraft should, not radio-controlled planes just buzzing around waiting to be shot down.
• A ship damage model that doesn't rely on a simple hit-point system but one that depends on torpedo placement and location of damage.

I agree with all of the above and most of the practically feasible other things that have been requested in this thread but anyone who knows me on this forum will know that my personal hobby-horse has always been immersive realism at all levels and especially "close up".

So one thing that I have been banging on about since SH III is far far far greater realism in the avatars, similar to that available in virtually every decent cutting edge FPS these days. (CRYSYS, FAR CRY 2, Modern Weapons 2 etc.) before anyoner says that this would be too demanding of resources, remember how few crew members have to be modelled and that ordinary crewmen can be generic with simple random vaiations of hat, hair style, skin colour etc. Onlt the main control room crew and officers need to be of maximum individual quality and difference. I want to see sweat and fear when under a depth charge attack, wet clothes and faces after a crash dive with seawater pouring down the hatch, sweat stains on shirts under attack etc. I also want a far more varied and reactive sound track with cries of alarm and shouts under depth charge attack and reactions to close shell bursts on the surface.

After all the three key foci of an ocean combat simulator are the natural environment, the combat personnel and their immediate environment and the interaction between these three elements. If any one of these three is badly done it ruins the immersive power and realism of the game.

As a former deep sea sailor like Steve I can attest that the ocean when suitably modded in SH III & IV has become uncannily and extraordinarily realstic as has weather and sky. Then one switches back into the interior of the sub and the wooden and obviously unreal avatars and the inability to move around instantly ruin the immersion for me.

I was the guy who whinged about seagulls until they put them into SH III and I have also asked many times for far more realism and variety in the flaura and fauna underwater. If we can have gulls that appear near the coast why can't they circle dumped rubbish at sea and why can't we have AI shoals of suitably sized fish at appropriate depths? Surely fish of perhaps 5 different classic shapes in a variety of given sizes would not be too tricky to generate as AI? I want to see shoals of small and medium sized fish underwater, occasional sharks, ray and dolphin schools and maybe even the odd whale! These would add hugely to the realism and, dare I say it, the "immersion" for all of us. AI fish should veer away from propellors and be killed by depth charges too, floating to the surface and appearing on the water surface. From what I know of programming the fish avatars only need to be extremely simple shapes and textures with perhaps a minimal range of colours, surely this would be feasible with a quite low GPU overhead?

As for realism I agree with the many many posters who have repeatedly requested the ability to move around inside the sub as in any FPS, even though I know that this will require the whole sub interior to be modelled. Remember the original Silent Hunter 1 when we had nothing but flat 2D control screens? Even there there were plenty of folk who said that a 3D interior was "merely eye candy and a waste of resources". Thank goodnees they were ignored!!!! Just like the bad old days of DOS when many geeks felt that even a Graphic User Inter was a waste of respources! The reality is that simulators and the movie industry are converging into a product that will eventually be exactly like an interactive movie and one day in the not too distant future one will be able to give one's avatar one's own face, as one already can in some air combat sims. Hence I too would love to see collaborative co-op multiplayer in SH 5 so that I and perhaps 4 friends can crew one sub in various roles, just as one can crew a bomber in co-op in IL2 1946 online. This HUGELY enhances the experience, immersion, game- addiction and feeling of cameraderie between sim crew members in virtual flotillas and squadrons.

As many others have requested since SH II, let's have a Destroyer Command surface warship sub-hunting game either as a separate companion game like the original Destroyer Command, or as an official paid add-on enhancement like Acceleration for MS FSX. I would certainly pay for it and know many others who would. (I still have the original Destroyer Command.)

The people who really need to hear and take notice of this oft repeated request are the UBISOFT marketing guys and the bean counters who worry about profits. Because such an addition would hugely increase the user-base and sales of this franchise and turn it into the kind of success in it's realm that the COD series has become for Infinity Ward. Remember that the original core design team of COD were those who left EA Medal of Honour's design team because EA were too conservative and wanted to stay with the product they knew rather than risk major change or enhancements. A collosal error of judgement that began with a risk-averse marketing and accounts team being allowed to prevail over the requests of their user base and the enthusiasm of their game designers.

Threads like this are priceless for any game Development House as they provide a free, hyper-detailed, reliable and absolutely sincere dynamic map of exactly what their user base want and are prepared to pay for as well as telling them what their user base prefer in the work of their competitors.

I bought the collectors edition of both SH III and SH IV even though I play them fairly infrequently, simply because they were both so well done. The only thing I disliked about SH IV was that the otherwise excellent opening movie with it's marvellous voice over was totally ruined by that silly speeded-up video effect. Why? DUH A definitely dumb "spoiling of the ship for a ha'penth of tar"! A silly idea on somebody's part that should have been ignored and squashed. Otherwise that would have eben one of the all time classic intro sequences for any video game. Such a pity.

I still have my original Game Manual for Red Baron 3D DeLuxe Edition simply because it was such a beautifully produced, well-made, well-researched, well-illustrated and desirable item, good enough to be retained as a stand-alone book on WW1 air combat. So I am quite happy to pay extra for "DeLuxe Collector's Editions" if they are that well done and I supect a great many other contributors to this Forum feel the same.

For example I have heard that the DeLuxe Collector's Edition of the Modern Weapons 2 FPS will come with functioning night vision goggles! An extreme example perhaps but I bet they will sell out and have to produce a second run to meet the demand.

Such attention to detail and added extras especially apply to a simulation with a limited appeal and a smaller user base such as ours. Don't make it down to a price but cater to the desire for quality and that way you will certainly also increase your fan, user and sales base.

[After all UBISOFT, look what Oleg Maddox has done for WW2 air combat! (Is "Storm of War - Battle of Britain" EVER going to be published by the way UBISOFT? At this rate it will be out of date when it is and you'll have missed the boat.) One great designer with an obsession for realism and accuracy, single-handedly cereated the team and agenda that defeated the mighty Microsoft and drove them out of the air combat market.

Tragically MS have now also made the almost incoceivably stupid decision to close down their civilian simulator design house, stop producing their most successful game product of all time (25 years old now) and pull out of the most successful add-on industry in video gaming. Once again accountants and marketing staff should be shot for such stupidity.

Personally I think Google are going to take over MS role in the global IT market after the disaster of VISTA which has destroyed the market's faith in MS products and OS's. It has certainly destroyed mine. Since Billy Goat Gates their arch-marketeer retired MS seem to have suffered a collective nervous breakdown. Google on other hand seem to deliver free or at low cost and see what the market wants ahead of time, instead of launching obscenely over-priced and incomplete products, using users to beta test them for nothing and then failing to support their user base, or charging insane sums for minimal and very poor technical support as MS have cynically done for decades. Customer relations are EVERYTHING in any commercial realm, including IT and gaming.]

[MeMpHiSGT]

Make it possible to give accurate command, i want to be able to quickly go 311 degrees. Without having to click 40 times before i get it right. Put an number box there or something, so i can type 311.

Same goes for other parts too, let me be able to control the dive planes or state which level of degree i want.

anywayz, thanks for listening

[Nowotny]

Have they confirmed the setting of Sh5? Is it Pacific or are we going back to the Atlantic? Please let it be the Atlantic.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Nowotny

Have they confirmed the setting of Sh5? Is it Pacific or are we going back to the Atlantic? Please let it be the Atlantic.

It is the Atlantic.

[PavelKirilovich]

I agree with much of what Lionman has said. With proper game design it is possible to create a game which runs acceptably on most hardware combinations. We should be able to accomodate people like me with high end gaming machines and people with more reasonably priced, not-custom-built machines even while maintaining a very high graphics standard. The key is multithreading and simply not rushing the core development process. When you do rush the core development process you get things like the game Armed Assault, which looked better than its predecessor Operation Flashpoint but had enormous gameplay issues and would simply refuse to run for many people. Armed Assault 2, if you've played ArmA previously, is very clearly the "full up, not released because we ran out of money halfway through the development process" version of the ArmA engine.

I can be patient.

So can the gaming community as a whole.

Look at Bethesda's Fallout 3. Huge success. Incredibly popular. Long wait. Why is it incredibly popular and such a success after such a wait? Because it is quality. Simply; quality. This is by no means beyond the capabilities of Ubisoft.

My wishlist includes:
- Greater modability in the form of support for the modding community. Game developers come on the major forums, like the SH3/4/5 forums here at SubSim and chat with the GWX team, chat with the WAC team, chat with guys like Mikhayl, iambecomelife, and Conus00. That makes an incredible difference. It happened with Operation Flashpoint which was released in 2001, I believe, and it is a game that I have been playing since its release. That's eight years now. It's been the first game on every new system I've had since 2001. It is that good. This is because of the community. Support the community and they will return the favour by expanding the game in directions that mean you get sales because people make mods so kick ass, they buy the game to check that mod out. I know that if for SH4 there was a mod enabling me to conn a series of Royal Navy submarines, I'd buy it.

- Greater interaction with the AI. GWX implemented a lot of this. It's not pleasant feeling like you're the only Kriegsmarine asset out there in the Nordatlantik being hunted by dozens of RN, RCN and USN vessels. Possibly the ability to implement some proper rudeltaktik would be superb; actually give the player the option to command a wolfpack when his rank reaches an appropriate level, to guide in a wolfpack when he contacts a convoy and shadows them. I would love to see the Luftwaffe scatter convoys for me, so I can slip in and torpedo merchants away from their escorts. The Luftwaffe had a lot of cool toys it'd be really nice to see them use in SH5 from the tower of my Type VII or Type IX. If I see a Fw-200 or a He-111 come in and release a Fritz-X antishipping glidebomb, even if that's the target I was trying to torpedo, I'm going to go: "Holy Hell, that was awesome."

- An option to select between historical and dynamic campaigns. Both can be implemented fairly well. Historical campaigns need to include the major actions and some minor actions, plus some randomly generated actons to make up the small actions which constitute a war. Nazi Germany still loses the war. The Wehrmacht, despite the Kriegsmarine Ubootswaffe's efforts, can't make any greater gains. The dynamic campaign on the other hand sees the Wehrmacht advancing and taking towns listed on maps depending on how much tonnage and what tonnage you sink. Sinking convoys bound for 8th Army in North Africa or for Malta may see the German war machine rolling over those areas, while the Russians continue to put up a dogged resistance in the Rodina. If you sink convoys bound for Russia carrying Lend-Lease, perhaps the Wehrmacht is able to take Stalingrad. Perhaps Leningrad falls. Perhaps "Ostland" is made a reality. Sinking several million tons of shipping will have an adverse impact on any nation's war footing. We had a thread here about how one virtual Kaleun managed to sink a large number of Royal Navy capitols. That'd have quite the effect in a dynamic campaign. Imagine, if you will, calling out a convoy contact and shadowing them only to be informed by BdU that a surface group is on its way to attack. You continue to stick around, eager to see this and poach a few targets, and then wham; KMS Bismarck and six destroyers rolling in guns blazing on the convoy. That's the sort of thing epic gaming memories are made of.

EDIT:
- Realism is intuitive. Even for people who don't know what is or is not realistic, realism is intuitive because the detection physics and so on make sense. Improve the electronic warfare and hydrophone behaviour aspects of the game; if you're worried this may be too much for some users and alienate a market share, that's where the excellent realism-adjustment interface comes in. "Disable Realistic Sensors", etc. It can be explained in tutorials, it can be explained in the manual. It doesn't have to be a year-long course in sonar physics to understand the operating principles of the KOBOLD decoy, for example, and how that would fit in to an improved sensor physics model and how the AI would react to it.

Continue with the excellent realism-adjustment options. This makes the game more accessible to the gaming community as a whole.

Recommendation: Recruit prominent members of the existing community into your team to provide content. Bohemia Interactive Studios poached personnel from the OFP community to improve ArmA content and ArmA 2 content. It really shows. It's a good thing to do. The minutae of it I have to leave up to the Ubi team, though I am sure that Ubi and BIS could talk about how BIS did it, how it may best fit the Ubi management policy, etc, etc.

[Sub Commander]

well well, first I must say that I totally agree with you guys, but please if u don't want SH V to be World War II, please stop posting before u make Ubisoft change their mind. SH was and will stay World War II, if u don't like the setting go and buy some cheap bad looking Cold War game, but stop trying to destroy SH V thank you. Now I'll continue with what I would like to see in the game (offcourse most of this is already said here but maybe I'll add some new things):

I. Wolfpacks, this is mentioned so often that Ubi would be stupid to neglect this.
II. Atlantic setting would be good for U-boats, and considered all those Americans that would love to play with their own subs (I can understand that though) make a campaign for them in the Pacific but better then SH IV.
III. More sub interiors like Crew Quarters, Torpedo Rooms etc.
IV. For U-boats the ability to choose its number like U-262 or u-194 and for Us subs names like Skippers Son (or whatever you could think of)
V. When you dive and the deck watch needs to go down the hatch, I want to see them going down that ladder.
VI. I want my crew to speak its Native language , (yes I know that u can download all those mods, but I'll tell you guys: I suck at getting all those folders in the right place without fkng my pc up. I did that once... Dont wanna do it again. Please get something that helps you with getting mods in the correct place.) But to continue the language idea, I think it sucks commanding a U-boat and ur crew is talking English...
VII. More things I can put on the side of my U-boat not only the Flotilla's emblem as in SH III, I want German Eagles, American Flags etc.
IIX. I don't want such a short campaign as in SH IV WotP U-boat missions u started mid 1943 and the war ends mid 1945 that sucks.
IX. When I fire a torpedo at a ship, the ships hull shows a gap (thats better then SH III) but I want it to be even better, I want to see engines when I hit the engine room, or I want beds to blasted away when I hit the crews quarters.
X. When u reload ur tubes from external reserves u dont see anything happen... uhm or are they ghosts, would love to see torpmen loading tubes with external reserves.
XI. More shell types, in SH III you could have Starshells, I loved them, but except for those I want more then 1 shelltype.
XII. Then more contact with the Befehlshaber der Unterseeboote (BdU) or as Us sub commander more contact with their commander.
XIIV. As said in number VI a booklet or a digital manual that explains step by step how to install mods in the correct folder.
XIV. A limited edition like SH IV had, even if it costs 100$ I would consider buying it, I love the series and would love to have a recoqnition manual with the special edition, with all the ships that are in the game.
XV. More attention to being promoted. At SH III u will get promoted if ur very lucky. But the crew still calls u Herr Kaleun, if i am a Captain they should call me something else then if I was a Major or whatever the ranks were called in the Navy, Kriegsmarine.
XVI. Walking around would be much more cooler and instead of just clicking on the hatch and be in the conning tower having to climb down the ladder.
XVII. When water is leaking into ur sub, that it stays on the floor and not dissapears. Until you have pumped it out.
XIIX. When I warned my HQ in SH IIIthat i spotted a convoy or a taskforce I usually got the answer that there was no help coming my way... and in SH IV I mostly got the answer that support was on its way, so I followed that convoy or taskforce and guess what... NOTHING EVER HAPPENED, not even when I stalked the convoy or taskforce for over 3 days... I want more positive and real support, not only written or a negative reply all the time.
XIX. QUOTE-Greater interaction with the AI. GWX implemented a lot of this. It's not pleasant feeling like you're the only Kriegsmarine asset out there in the Nordatlantik being hunted by dozens of RN, RCN and USN vessels. Possibly the ability to implement some proper rudeltaktik would be superb; actually give the player the option to command a wolfpack when his rank reaches an appropriate level-QUOTE Man THIS IS BRILJANT the rank system in SH IV wasnt that good at all. But this would be much better.
XX. When in SH IV taskforces changed course they always turned away before turning the right way. That costs too much time if they need to be somewhere exactly at a specific time.
W00t these are my suggestions for now, i'll sure come up with loads more (allthough i wonder if Ubi even looks at this.) PLEASE I WANT A RECOQNITION MANUAL!! LOOK AT NUMBER XIV!!.

P.S. GWX is working on GWX 4.0 that is going to recreate SH IV, I don't think GWX is going to publish it any earlier then Ubi publishes SH V that would Fck SH V sell numbers. Cuz what I have seen from 4.0 so far... w00t that was sick look for urself, it looks so good. Well i'll stop bashing Ubi before they wont let me buy SH V.

[Sub Commander]

Okay I have come up with more ideas.

I. It would be cool to have like a jump in jump out multiplayer, like World in Conflict, HAWX (both Ubisoft games) have, but then much much much bigger and I mean really big. U can choose what u want to commandeer: Surface ships (destroyers,Battleships,Carriers) Submarines or when ur rank is high enough try to get a promotion to Fleet Commander (or whatever) then u can start sending ur countrys ships around, when players complete such orders they get renown same as for killing enemies. The game starts and takes like 6 years (1939-1945). When u get killed, u lose renown and have to start over in ur port, with a delay maybe? But this idea can be greatly changed offcourse. THE MULTIPLAYER game of the year. Create servers that can have like 10.000 people on and create like 3 of em. (USA, Europe, Asia.) Then when u have an account registered at Ubisoft, u can start roaming around in the Multiplayer world. The costs for these servers can be easily retained, through all the sold coppies ( NavyField is a free to download naval sim it is played by many (includes me) but it doesnt look that great. If SH5 or maybe use this idea for SH6(???) would have that multiplayer in it, I think many people will buy it.
II. mentioned by me before: I WANT A SPECIAL ( LIMITED) EDITION, WILLING TO PAY FOR IT!!! With a recognition manual and the lot.

Okay I have to stop now, but I will come back with more Ideas the sooner or later. B.t.w. Please if we could have that (M)assive (M)ultiplayer (O)nline (N)aval (S)imulator in the game (MMONS) it would be great.

[Sub Commander]

I. A 3D SH V or VI, I think that even more people would buy the game if it had some REAL GOOD 3D glasses, I would sure love to play a Top Notch game, brandnew, about World War 2 and with Subs, that had a high end 3D effect. Consider this when producing SH VI, I would love to put my 3D glasses on and feel like I was actually commanding that sub.

[PL_Andrev]

What????

3D Glasses? What's more?
DX12? 8-cored processor? 16GB RAM?

I think that many people would buy this game, because they love IIWW submarine simulations... not the "new perfect graphics, dynamic atmospheric effects, new engine"...
This is one big mistake, if I cannot play with 100% "particles density" because my 1MB internet connection is crashed in multiplayer mode.
Maybe my network is not perfect, but why graphic engine crashes interent connections?

At the best stupid idea is that I must return to my old Destroyer Command game to play historical battles with my friends on multiplayer mode against evil Japan/British/American/German submarines! With 10-yeards old graphic!!! Why my friends have no bought SH3/SH4 and want still to play DC vs. SH2?
Why? Because in no other similar product! No new legend! No new naval IIWW multiplayer!


Would you play good game with poor graphic or poor game with good graphic?

[Sub Commander]

no bad comments on someones ideas, read the first post!

[Lionman]

Originally Posted by Sub Commander

I. A 3D SH V or VI, I think that even more people would buy the game if it had some REAL GOOD 3D glasses, I would sure love to play a Top Notch game, brandnew, about World War 2 and with Subs, that had a high end 3D effect. Consider this when producing SH VI, I would love to put my 3D glasses on and feel like I was actually commanding that sub.

In a 3D SH V you would HAVE to be able to move around throughout the boat!

But I must say it could be awesome and even make the game a market changing trail-blazing classic. Imagine the feeling of coming up the ladder into the conning tower and the sudden visual and acoustic "space" of the surrounding open ocean and moving 3D clouds? That already hyper-realistic ocean in 3 D would be mind blowing as would rain, lightning and gulls wheeling at varying distances! This would also be a fantastic opportunity to enhance 3D sound direction and distance location!

GREAT IDEA!

I'd simply settle for it being BUG:rotfl:FREE

:d amn::dam n:

[Hanomag]

In case it hasnt been mentioned... Abandon ship option... for damage and surrender option....

Of course I would never surrender but for the saner kaluens out there.

[sabretwo]

1. Realistic AI and ship functions!

2. Ease of modability.

3. Completed submarine interior (Similar to what Tomi is working on for SH4) with interactive crew members. (A lot can be done with this!)

--- Animated damage (water filling compartments, smoke, etc.)
--- Crew animations synchronized with activity and condiitons (reloading torpedos, damage control, monitoring the engines, playing cards in the crew quarters, nervous and quiet when being hunted from above, etc.)

4. Better sea and sky graphics and animations.

[Indiana_Jones]

If they do make SH V, I would love to have internal view for the whole sub and watch the crew loading the torpedos and running down the sub for a crash dive.

Edit: see it's been said I few times, no surprise really lol.