Supplement to SH Survey: What should Ubi do to make SH5 the best?

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Steeltrap

Hi all. I've not posted for quite a while, so it's nice to be back.

I have a few comments:

Realism is king, with some caveats.

Yes we want technical realism, by which I mean the known performance of x piece of kit is reflected in the sim, as are the dates things became available etc etc. So, radar in SHV is not acceptable i.e. air search radar giving bearing when it was only ever an A-scope. That's just basic and shoody.

For every level of realism, there might be an option of choosing NOT to have it in your game. This solves the problem of "appealing to the casual gamer" that is, IMO, an excuse for "we couldn't be bothered to get it right".

Rather than rattle off a whole bunch of technical and other aspects, I'd like to mention a focus on something different: command. I'd like the sim to portray accurately what it was like to command a submarine.
- That means my CREW matters a great deal. I need people with skills. I need a good crew roster.
- As skipper, I make observations of a target's AoB, range etc and it's the fire control party that comes up with target course and speed and plot it on a map. I do NOT mean the same as the 'fire control officer assistance' in SHIII, mind you.
- I make firing observations but it's the crew that prepares the torps.
- I give precise depth/course/speed orders, it's the crew that does it.
In short, I do NOT want to have to go to all the different screens that are currently used to do manual fire control. It's NOT REALISTIC. The skipper didn't do all those things. So, when it comes to realism, I have 2 views:
1. technocrat realism - yes, I can go to all those screens to input everything.
2. command realism - no, I CAN'T do the input OTHER than the level of things controlled by the skipper.

A lot of people get excited over technical realism (such as controlling dive planes etc etc) yet ignore the fact that a skipper did not do all that stuff.

I want a revolution in that I command, and experience the pressures that go with that. I don't want to get bogged down in micro-managing TECHNICAL aspects a skipper didn't IRL. I'd like THAT to be an option in difficulty settings i.e. "realistic command Y/N". This would mean I'd need to think about sending crew members off to various technical schools while in base, and they might even miss the next patrol. That means I'm down an experienced person, but it also means they come back more skilled. Frankly, some R&R also becomes a factor. This sort of "strategic crew planning", looking at more than just the next patrol, was a factor in command, and I'd like to see it reflected in the sim.

Just some thoughts.

Wow... you nailed it there!

[java`s revenge]

- all points of above.
- better all shortcomings of sh3, for example the smoke, it have to
go to the direction as the wind goes.
- add the great dutch navy. I do still miss this.
(http://www.netherlandsnavy.nl/) look under ships, ships by name)
- better damage textures etc.
- combine with destroyer command v.5
(nice for online playing)
- make detecting by a destroyer realistic. (no superai anymore)
In real life, lying on a seabed you were almost undetectable.
- better crew animation, live onboard.
- Let the damage of a cargoship also cargo dependable.
(search on youtube what a torpedoes does with a tanker)
- When the bridge of a cargo/destroyer has been gunned let the
ship unsteerable. (crew is killed)
- more realism.
- in wintertime i do miss ice on deck etc.
- make the inside of a uboat as it really was. I do mean
a full realistic made rooms etc. So a copy of the real uboat.

[Wintahs]

- Aside from the SH3 style dynamic campaign, maybe include a story mode?

-More life aboard the uboat

-WOLF PACKS!!

[dcb]

I guess these were mentioned a thousand times before, but anyway, here's my take:
- WOLFPACKS, of course, meaning a competent underwater AI;
- radio (and even intelligence) interaction with base, and with sea, underwater and air assets - friendly, neutral and enemy;
- dynamic campaign - a must - but with random missions every now and then, based on war events;
- water and ships hydro behavior that looks natural, unlike the flying subs seen in SH4;
- realistic weather, that should also include snow and ice (a must during Arctic patrols)
- high level of moddability, of course;
- a more interactive uboat - realistic crew management, malfunctions, damage model, supplies etc.
- something I miss since SH1: awarding points (or whatever form of renown the game will give) also for damaged ships, instead of completely ignoring such kind of achievements;
- a more realistic way of handling the boat, from the commander's point of view: interaction with crew in plotting a target's course, the possibility to use crew members for doing the actions they did in reality (I mean, while surfaced, the target was plotted by a crew member, but while submerged, the only info could be obtained by the captain alone).

Many of these ideas actually were due to make their way into SH3 as well, but the devs were not given the time needed to complete them. There's a lot of hints in the SH3 files that they were scheduled to be coded - sound files not addressed by the engine, lines of code that don't work etc.
So, the ideas are there, I am certain the dev team is aware of all our wishes and is working hard to fulfill them. The only problem is: will the devs be allowed to develop the game to the full extent they want? If so, I am sure all of these - and even more - will be put in the game. I only hope they will be given enough time and nobody will force them to cut the developing short.

[donut]

Originally Posted by Steeltrap

Hi all. I've not posted for quite a while, so it's nice to be back.

I have a few comments:

Realism is king, with some caveats.

Yes we want technical realism, by which I mean the known performance of x piece of kit is reflected in the sim, as are the dates things became available etc etc. So, radar in SHV is not acceptable i.e. air search radar giving bearing when it was only ever an A-scope. That's just basic and shoody.

For every level of realism, there might be an option of choosing NOT to have it in your game. This solves the problem of "appealing to the casual gamer" that is, IMO, an excuse for "we couldn't be bothered to get it right".

Rather than rattle off a whole bunch of technical and other aspects, I'd like to mention a focus on something different: command. I'd like the sim to portray accurately what it was like to command a submarine.
- That means my CREW matters a great deal. I need people with skills. I need a good crew roster.
- As skipper, I make observations of a target's AoB, range etc and it's the fire control party that comes up with target course and speed and plot it on a map. I do NOT mean the same as the 'fire control officer assistance' in SHIII, mind you.
- I make firing observations but it's the crew that prepares the torps.
- I give precise depth/course/speed orders, it's the crew that does it.
In short, I do NOT want to have to go to all the different screens that are currently used to do manual fire control. It's NOT REALISTIC. The skipper didn't do all those things. So, when it comes to realism, I have 2 views:
1. technocrat realism - yes, I can go to all those screens to input everything.
2. command realism - no, I CAN'T do the input OTHER than the level of things controlled by the skipper.

A lot of people get excited over technical realism (such as controlling dive planes etc etc) yet ignore the fact that a skipper did not do all that stuff.

I want a revolution in that I command, and experience the pressures that go with that. I don't want to get bogged down in micro-managing TECHNICAL aspects a skipper didn't IRL. I'd like THAT to be an option in difficulty settings i.e. "realistic command Y/N". This would mean I'd need to think about sending crew members off to various technical schools while in base, and they might even miss the next patrol. That means I'm down an experienced person, but it also means they come back more skilled. Frankly, some R&R also becomes a factor. This sort of "strategic crew planning", looking at more than just the next patrol, was a factor in command, and I'd like to see it reflected in the sim.

Just some thoughts.

This is right on option. Also seperate engine control. If you have Fog,you don't have hi winds,if you have hi winds you have white caps. real sea states please.

[Steeltrap]

Thanks to all who enjoyed/supported my thoughts (particularly nice to get a or ).

It's good to see the familiar faces in my favourite game website (and I still find it hard to believe I was here - March 2001 - before many of the real 'characters').....

I've not posted for a while as I'm not playing - I upgraded to a sweet 22" high def Dell monitor and found SHIII didn't cope. Any solutions to that??

Hope all are well.

Cheers

[Cohaagen]

1) A complete Royal Navy

Or as complete as can be attempted. In 1939 the RN was still the biggest fleet in the world. It'd be more than a little disappointing if, like SH3, SH5 out the box consisted of a Revenge class, a carrier, some destroyers and a corvette. The fact that the Barham subclass, Ark Royal and HMS Courageous - all sunk by U-boats! - were missing is unforgivable. The RN is, after all, very much your main enemy in the game, just as the Kriegsmarine considered it during the war.

2) Randomised AI behaviour

One of the reasons why I've had diminishing returns with SH3, even after GWX, is that the actions of AI units are so easy to predict after a few months of playing.

3) Ahead-throwing weapons!

Most importantly Squid and Double Squid, with Loch Class frigates to carry them. Also, Mousetrap for US ships. Maybe even Shark - if it's valid to play as a Type XXI, it's surely valid to get fired at with experimental Allied weapons!

Squid is most important, though. It's not like it was an obscure weapon - it accounted for dozens of U-boats.

4) Realistic damage modelling and graphics based on real war accounts and photographs

Every individual ship should have unique compartment modelling to allow for different damage behaviour every time a torpedo hits.

That means:

No more putting one eel in the bow of a ship with a sinking guaranteed as the captain drives his ship underwater

Ships can stop or slow down to attempt damage control, even if this is just HP restoration or pumping out

All ships can break up, with either section sinking or staying afloat. Ships can lose their bow or stern sections and remain afloat. Warships can capsize, as they do in GWX

5) A full, proper and unified physics engine

6) Don't expect or rely upon modders to fix bugs, playtest or fill in the gaps for you!

7) Accurate ship behaviour

No more F1-style acceleration and stopping from 20yr old merchants and warships. Realistic turning circles and tactical diameters.

8) Remember your constituency - given a choice, realism and historical accuracy are far preferable to fancy graphics and effects


One last thing: I have to disagree with people asking for playable surface ships. If you attempt that, the sub portion of the game is inevitably going to suffer. Likewise, a combined Atlantic and Pacific game with the option to play as German, US, British, Japanese, Dutch, Siamese, Free French, Albanian, etc. is also going to have the effect of watering down the core experience. Pick one nationality - my choice is German - and stick with it.

[Sailor Steve]

First post in the thread:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Please note any comments, ideas, suggestions, and observations you would like to make about SH5; what would make it great, what mistakes from SH3/SH4 not to repeat, etc.

NOTE: Post your thoughts and opinions, do not comment on other member's posts in this thread. Flaming not allowed.

Thanks
Neal

[Sub Commander]

Little bit off-topic but still want to mension this. Ubisoft is going to tell us more about SH 5 at Cologne's GameCom what if they say they are not going to release it before christmas 2010 or later... maybe they will say this is going to be the last world war 2 installement......

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Sub Commander

Little bit off-topic but still want to mension this. Ubisoft is going to tell us more about SH 5 at Cologne's GameCom what if they say they are not going to release it before christmas 2010 or later... maybe they will say this is going to be the last world war 2 installement......

I hope not....would love to see a PTO addon

[geosub1978]

One last thing from me....

I hope that there will be not left many things to be modded and that we will proceed smoothly to SH6 discussing adventures of our patrols in SH5 and not about mod compatibilities, ctds, possible solutions, beta testings and so on.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by geosub1978

One last thing from me....

I hope that there will be not left many things to be modded and that we will proceed smoothly to SH6 discussing adventures of our patrols in SH5 and not about mod compatibilities, ctds, possible solutions, beta testings and so on.

In all honesty, I'm sure the modders would love nothing better than to have nothing left to mod because SH5 is complete and robust out of the box.

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

In all honesty, I'm sure the modders would love nothing better than to have nothing left to mod because SH5 is complete and robust out of the box.

Great idea!

[JMV]

Personaly I think playing computer games is not a "niche", or should not be allowed to become one.
I have an X Box 360 to , and the way it is, due to the restriction in the number of commands, it will never be as "rich" as a ( Good ) computer game. But nobody is united as usual. We customers have to call the shots, because ultimately all they want is to make money. One can easily see that by the way they have to always release a game in a haste, full of bugs in nuisance rather than taking their time to release a top nocht game. ( as Bethesda did with Elder Scrolls IV and fallout III for example )
It's like I don't watch the bloody TV anymore, I am fed up to be interrupted with commercials every 10 minutes, but no, they all say the same but all stay inert in front of their screen, suffering the pain not saying anything
One day may be computer games will disapear and it will be our fault.
And please stop uploading your files at Filefront, upload at Subsim.

[kaptkirkU4467]

I would like a AI UBoat that helps me!
Case in point,U 99 and U 47 deck gunning the same ship during the attack on Convoy HX 72.Now that would be a screen shot to end all!

Real "welcome home" events dock side.

Kicked to the army when you fail.

Crew that starts to breakdown under a long depthcharge attack,i.e. as in Das Boot.

A real good end of war event..not just "its over" cya next sim.

Type XXIII.

A better Drumbeat.

More single player missions...ones that we have not done in SH2/SH3...over and over...

Real convoy ship routes.

More lone ships"jumpers" as there were during the war.

Better weather,its the Atlantic!

And last...ships that did not sink for days or wrecked in a storm...and you find it drifting,ripe for the kill.