The enemy within: evangelical fundamentalism in US armed forces

[The WosMan]

I see. The local vernacular always amazes me.

[LtCmdrRat]

Originally Posted by The WosMan

I see. The local vernacular always amazes me.

same story

[Tchocky]

Some very scary reports have come out of the USAF Academy in Colorado Springs. Apparently the religious environment there is rather oppressive.

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Some very scary reports have come out of the USAF Academy in Colorado Springs. Apparently the religious environment there is rather oppressive.

Really? Link to those reports? Or is it just you projecting your own feelings as to what AFF would be like for you?

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by waste gate

Really? Link to those reports? Or is it just you projecting your own feelings as to what AFF would be like for you?

Interesting response.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/...r_from_within/
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in919947.shtml
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...55C0A9639C8B63
http://www.americanhumanist.org/pres...tSeptOct07.php

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Interesting response.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/...r_from_within/
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in919947.shtml
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...55C0A9639C8B63
http://www.americanhumanist.org/pres...tSeptOct07.php

Thanks for the links Tchocky.

Remember that the US military academies are strickly voluntary. The cadets can withdraw at any time. And once again congress has made no law establishing any religion.

[Skybird]

Doesn't sound nice, Tchocky. It matches what I had found on evangelist mobbing in armed forces, and killing people's career chances if they do not convert. Of course it all makes mockery of the secular nature the armed forces once had, and by their historic self-definition and mottos should have.

Happy crusade everyone!

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Doesn't sound nice, Tchocky. It matches what I had found on evangelist mobbing in armed forces, and killing people's career chances if they do not convert. Of course it all makes mockery of the secular nature the armed forces once had, and by their historic self-definition and mottos should have.

Happy crusade everyone!

Yeah watch out for us Skybird. After the Christians take us over we're gonna join forces with the Muslims and come after you!

"Onward Christian Soooooldiers... (we need a musical note smiley)"

[Skybird]

Ridiculous "jokes" cannot replace arguments. Often they illustrate the lack of these.

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Ridiculous "jokes" cannot replace arguments. Often they illustrate the lack of these.

An imam and a rabbi walk into a bar...

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Ridiculous "jokes" cannot replace arguments. Often they illustrate the lack of these.

Yeah just as your reply illustrates your lack of any sort of a sense of humor.

But seriously, what kind of argument do you suggest i make to a person such as yourself who knows very little of the intracacies of American society and has already made his mind up that all people who believe in a supreme being are crazy and dangerous?

Should i state my opinion based on my 48 years of experience as a US citizen? Or my 7 years of US military service, or the 17 years before that i spent as a US military dependant living on Army bases around the world? Or my current and extensive contacts within all four branches of the US military? All that stuff you have repeatedly discounted when it suits your argument.

After all how could I ever know more about my own homeland than the mighty Skybird, a foreign civilian with no military backround except maybe 2 years of conscript service in a military that hasn't seen active service since WW2?

[Letum]

Originally Posted by August

Should i state my opinion based on my 48 years of experience as a US citizen? Or my 7 years of US military service, or the 17 years before that i spent as a US military dependant living on Army bases around the world? Or my current and extensive contacts within all four branches of the US military?

I wouldn't base it on that.
It's bound to lead to bias.

It might lead to a correct conclusion, but a view from outside is allways more objective.

[August]

Originally Posted by Letum

I wouldn't base it on that.
It's bound to lead to bias.

It might lead to a correct conclusion, but a view from outside is allways more objective.

I disagree. Outside observers almost always have their own preconcieved notions of reality that shape their opinions. They also tend to give inordinate weight to the radical statements of others because they lack familiarity with the subject.

[Skybird]

August, you know the diffrerence between joke and provocation. and what special knowledge about america do I refer to in this thread, eh? I linked a study of an ameircan who refers to some things about yourself and your country that you do not like, and you guys go into orbit attacking me instead, isntead of dealing with his findings. You do not wish to be reminded of your flaws and mistakes - but ignorrance will not make them go away, it just gives them time and space to grow under your protection. Sure, I read some books on America. And yes, all what those authors wrote must be wrong if it does not match August's view of america - or what? Atheists cannot be Americans and should be thrown out of the country. americans criticising it for it'S mistakes are antiamericans, they should get MacCarthynised - that is okay since it is for a good purpose, isn't it.

America today is a very different country than it was in the past. The ties between it'S attempt to become what it's constitution expressed it should be, and the opportune realities lobbies and leaders create, have worn out, and became extremely thin. the difference between the intentions of the founding fathers, and the present and future state of America, couldn't be any bigger, I think. It slowly changes towards what the founding fathers wanted it to save from becoming. Which maybe is no surprise, since nothings ever stays like it is, and everythign alsways is in movement. But as long as one does not recognize this simple fact of life, one is rejecting every chnace to influence the course of chnages for the better. Who does not see the changing taking place, also does not see any need to compensate and to adapt.

I did not refer to American's behavior. I did not comment on their cloathing style and weekend habits, and not on the way public life takes place on the street. That I do not know by experience. but I can read statistics and history books, and refer to the data given in these. And not every author is wrong simply because he does not mirror your tunnelview perceptions. Maybe they are pointing at things you do not like. that does not relieve you from having to prove their data and arguments wrong instead of messing around with my person - and in a way that has a bit more to offer than just your own life experience. That you can bring in, yes, and label it as "my experience with it is this: xyz." But actually you mismatch your subjective views of america with the one and only truth about america there is. But you cannot even be sure that you speak for a majoirty of your people. Both the study I linked, written by an american, published from a site associated with an american military academy, and those news Tchocky has linked - they both describe a specific problem defined in a clearly outlined context, that is perceived from outside the US as well as from people inside. And sometimes you can see some details from the outside that are hidden as long as you are inside, I was told that occaisonally, eventually, sometimes - it is like this indeed...

So declare what you want here: you have better findings and arguments from an independeant source (please, no official statements by the mulitary, they are brewing their own PR soup), and any data, able to prove the things linked here as obsolete and wrong, or do you just wish to go after me, and giving only biblical and constitutional scriptures whose idealistic intentions and superstitious assumptions you mismatch with the factual status of reality?

I'm sorry if I have touched a sensible issue, but we already have seen the Iraq war 2003 coming partialy from these dangerous developements of a derailing political ambition, and it affects the whole world, is not just an internal issue of America alone. We cannot afford not to be concerned. If evangelist views of the world form future decisions about war and peace, then where armageddon before remained to be one amongst many possible ways for history to choose, it now is guaranteed in an attempt to fulfill man-written scriptures in an act of self-fulfilling prophecy, and an American army made up by church-fanatics is in no way any different anymore than Islamic fanatics. Both have different names for things, but act by the same motivation of intolerance, demand to dominate, to supress, to bring every other view to inquisition.

Perception of reality dominated by religious views like these ancient superstitions leaves mankind not a single chance to ever see better days, but will lauch an endless chain of religiously motivated wars, conflicts and hate filled acts of intolerance and barbarism. In other words: in that scenario, the US would not be any better than Al Quaeda, and religiously motivated supression of any other culture and believe and religion would be the American norm - like in islam. All in the name of democracy, tolerance, peace and freedom of course. Well, today's terms do not mean anything anymore, if everybody can understand something different under the same term.

That is where the threats described in the study are leading to. Why doesn't make anyone a stupid joke about it? I'm sure that joke is coming.

By the way you and some people here totally ignore all that and wipe it off the table with some wide gestures only, and saying "it cannot be what should not be, and if it is nevertheless, then it is harmless becasue it cannot be that in america something goes wrong and is different to what the constitution says it should be like", then by that you show exactly that dangerous blindness towards internal problems, you show exactly that filtering of perception and give an example of that kind of culturally motivated arrogance - the authors are rightfully complaining about. That you help their argument by that is ironic, to say the least.

You guys all turn it into an issue "you versus evil, atheist Skybird". Atheism free of political and religious ideologies has caused mankind much fewer aggression, conquest, intolerance and hate than any of the great theistic religions, becasue it has not conviction that makes it think it miust impose them onto others, no matter what. So your attacks on my atheistic attitude are like medals of honour for me, and a confirmation of why i am against institutionalised religions in total. If I want to reassure myself of why i think it is bad for man, and a lethal threat to mankind - all i need to do is to listen to some of you guys.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

I disagree. Outside observers almost always have their own preconcieved notions of reality that shape their opinions. They also tend to give inordinate weight to the radical statements of others because they lack familiarity with the subject.

Tell that Lieutenant Colonel William Millonig.