The enemy within: evangelical fundamentalism in US armed forces

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

So if we can believe this obviously biased persons numbers, out of 48 new chaplains at the AF academy back in 2004 a whopping 12 of them are considered (by him) to be evangelical. Yeah i'd say that would be pretty diverse. Maybe not as diverse as it could be but far more diverse than you imply.

I wonder how many of the other 36 chaplains are Muslim?

6 chaplains multiplied by 300% = 18 chaplains, 12 plus former 3 (of former 6) = 15 of 18 chaplains being evangelicals, that makes for a quota of 83.3%. Clergymen raised by 300%, while cadet numbers fell by 25%.
15 fundamentalists, 2 other christians, 1 Jewish.

Math, 7th class.
Or read it in the article.

what was it with diversity?

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

6 chaplains multiplied by 300% = 18 chaplains, 12 plus former 3 (of former 6) = 15 of 18 chaplains being evangelicals, that makes for a quota of 83.3%. Clergymen raised by 300%, while cadet numbers fell by 25%.
15 fundamentalists, 2 other christians, 1 Jewish.

Math, 7th class.
Or read it in the article.

what was it with diversity?

Yeah I did accidently count the original 6 chaplains twice, but then again you left off the 25 reserve chaplains so i'll trade you 7th grade math (actually that's more like 2nd grade math here in the states) for 3rd grade reading comprehension.

As for the increase, maybe there were too few chaplains in 1966? Ever think of that? Also as anyone familiar with educational institutions knows student populations vary from year to year whereas hiring and firing of staff is rarely adjusted at the same pace. What is the chaplain population now?

[Iceman]

I read the entire original article and undrstand his pov.I actually find it somewhat comforting that there is so much noticable influence as pointed out.

Kind of funny in there where it was mentioned about the possibility of some Athesist being spoken to in an attempt to convert him to Christianity is like sin to him.The science of man is like the religion of the present day and I and other Christians consider it a stumbling block and at times an offence.

This is loaded with opinions and observations from the last 100yrs with a couple of quotes from Sun Tzu.

The fantasy that the military, and I assume Skybird is talking about the U.S. military, will ever be rid of God fearing Christians will never happen.The writer alludes to the effects of said Christians dramatically can effect the clear non-biased thought process and decision making..this is his opinion and as he himself points out does not have many examples.

In a mulitude of counslers there is wisdom...

Proverbs 1

[1] The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;
[2] To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;
[3] To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;
[4] To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.
[5] A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
[6] To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
[7] The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
[8] My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:
[9] For they shall be an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck.
[10] My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not.
[11] If they say, Come with us, let us lay wait for blood, let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause:
[12] Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit:
[13] We shall find all precious substance, we shall fill our houses with spoil:
[14] Cast in thy lot among us; let us all have one purse:
[15] My son, walk not thou in the way with them; refrain thy foot from their path:
[16] For their feet run to evil, and make haste to shed blood.
[17] Surely in vain the net is spread in the sight of any bird.
[18] And they lay wait for their own blood; they lurk privily for their own lives.
[19] So are the ways of every one that is greedy of gain; which taketh away the life of the owners thereof.
[20] Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
[21] She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
[22] How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
[23] Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
[24] Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
[25] But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
[26] I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
[27] When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
[28] Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
[29] For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
[30] They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
[31] Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
[32] For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
[33] But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

[kiwi_2005]

Originally Posted by Iceman

I read the entire original article and undrstand his pov.I actually find it somewhat comforting that there is so much noticable influence as pointed out.

Kind of funny in there where it was mentioned about the possibility of some Athesist being spoken to in an attempt to convert him to Christianity is like sin to him.The science of man is like the religion of the present day and I and other Christians consider it a stumbling block and at times an offence.

This is loaded with opinions and observations from the last 100yrs with a couple of quotes from Sun Tzu.

The fantasy that the military, and I assume Skybird is talking about the U.S. military, will ever be rid of God fearing Christians will never happen.The writer alludes to the effects of said Christians dramatically can effect the clear non-biased thought process and decision making..this is his opinion and as he himself points out does not have many examples.

In a mulitude of counslers there is wisdom...

Proverbs 1

[1] The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;
[2] To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;
[3] To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;
[4] To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.
[5] A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
[6] To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
[7] The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
[8] My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:
[9] For they shall be an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck.
[10] My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not.
[11] If they say, Come with us, let us lay wait for blood, let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause:
[12] Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit:
[13] We shall find all precious substance, we shall fill our houses with spoil:
[14] Cast in thy lot among us; let us all have one purse:
[15] My son, walk not thou in the way with them; refrain thy foot from their path:
[16] For their feet run to evil, and make haste to shed blood.
[17] Surely in vain the net is spread in the sight of any bird.
[18] And they lay wait for their own blood; they lurk privily for their own lives.
[19] So are the ways of every one that is greedy of gain; which taketh away the life of the owners thereof.
[20] Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
[21] She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
[22] How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
[23] Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
[24] Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
[25] But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
[26] I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
[27] When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
[28] Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
[29] For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
[30] They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
[31] Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
[32] For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
[33] But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

Best book in the Bible "Ecclesiastes" told by the son of David.

'Everything is meaningless'

[Skybird]

"In a mulitude of counslers there is wisdom..." (Iceman)

Especially when they all are yelling with the same voice, yelling the same stuff, keeping away other voices as best as they can, and tell you you have no future in a place if you do not join them. Which effectively make the multitude of counselors de facto just one single counselor. And that is a bit thin between the ears.

You love that uniformity of opinion only because it matches your opinion, Iceman. If it would be something different, in opposition to your opinion, you would demand for a more proper representation of cultural diversity, to have your views included. Diversity for you is ideological uniformity - YOUR uniformity. It's that kind of "diversity" they have in the Chinese parliament, and that they had in the GDR, and the Eastern block. It represents "reason", and the "demand of the majority of the people" - in the understanding of this being true in the Third Reich as well. - The Nazis never were supported by a majority of Nazi activists in Germany, they lived by intimidation, securing key psoitons and security, bullying, a climate of anonymous fear. and evangelical fundamentalism is not any representative for all Christianity. It is one sect only, demanding more shares than are it's own, and ruthlessly pushing for dominance over the others.

You guys mix up your private religions, with "diversity", and "proper representation of factions". You see yourself at the centre of the world, and do not care for diversity and freedom at all - if it means that your own conviction is dominant and at the centre of all. Then the abandoning of freedom, diversity, even democracy is very well okay for you. As long as it is in the name of making others believe what you believe, all that uniformity and tyranny is very much okay. and if these others challenge your selfish views, defend themselves against your intended dominance, quesation your motives - you accuse them to be immoral and accuse them of all the things that you are practcing yourself exessively to secure your grab for power.

And you want to live the ideals of the founding fathers, and the ideals of the constitution? You are it's worst enemies, enemies from within. And the changes you accept, would lead into an American fundamentalist theocracy indead.

And that is not what America, it's ideals, values and constitution, the intention of the founding fathers were about. No matter in what sect's name such changes come along. It is not freedom of relgion, it is the abuse of that freedom, to lock away all religions in favour of just one single sectarian view.

The uncritical, selfish acceptance of these serious distortions of basic American ideals is what confirms me in my assessement that institutionalised theistic religions only lead to intolerance and turn out the worst in man. And when a military gets dominated by such men, and peace and war gets decided by their views, then this is an extremely dangerous thing, and everybody has all reason there is to be worried.

And believe it or not - this lack of tolerance is only somehow logical, for the Bible is not in explicit fdefense of tolerance. That is a conception from the enlightenment, the tradition of the French revolution. The Bible has not much positive to say on tolerance, nor have the gospels. Jesus did not say that others should be tolerated. He just said that if you wish to free yourself, you have to accept to walk your way, pick up your burden, and accept your responsibility. He said you should leave others behind, if they do not see the need of doing like he does. Tolerance in the meaning of valuing other's different view did not play a role in his teachings. "Leavbe the others behind and let the dead bury their dead". Keep their religion to them, and keep your religion to yourself, that's how it could be said in modern words.

If this is a healthy, peace-preserving attitude in today's close nearness of armed selfish cultures, is something different. One more of many reasons not to take old scriptures literally.

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by Iceman

The fantasy that the military, and I assume Skybird is talking about the U.S. military, will ever be rid of God fearing Christians will never happen.

i think the ideal place is where a secular military should not officially favour one religion over another, which is the direction in which some places seem to be heading.
This has nothing to do with individual soldier's beliefs, it's a staff attitude.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

i think the ideal place is where a secular military should not officially favour one religion over another, which is the direction in which some places seem to be heading.
This has nothing to do with individual soldier's beliefs, it's a staff attitude.

The creativity to totally distort what I said amazes me time and again (meaning Iceman here).

Well, this is what the Air Force once had to say on it before turning into a religious recruiting camp.

“Military professionals must remember that religious choice is a matter of individual conscience. Professionals, and especially commanders, must not take it upon themselves to change or coercively influence the religious views of subordinates.”
—Religious Toleration (Air Force Code of Ethics, 1997)

A careful reader would already have read it three times before reaching this posting where it is said a fourth time.

[CB..]

here we have your basic problem

tho shalt not kill....note it doesn't say thou shalt not kill except when it's a matter of national security it just says thou shalt not kill..oh well lets ignore that one for the time being...as it complicates everything enourmously..

then there's he who lives by the sword will die by it..

both stock roll out the barrel doctrinal bed rock

the problem is that it is impossible to reconcile the issues...

hence the BS

there ARE ways round the contradictions..and there-by hangs the tale...by the time you have finshed reshaping your beliefs to fit the need for military force...you may as well just admit that God is great (ahem) but pass the ammunition..because somehow you just don't quite think God is going to fight your battles for you...or protect you from harm...(that difficult FAITH thing again)...or perhaps that God helps those who help themselves..and it all starts to get very ambigious...very inconvient...so "best" fit God to the political situation and needs... not fit the political situation needs to God...which is where we came in....completely arse about tip...did God do this ..did God do that..or did God do the other...?? or did we do it?? God as scape-goat or excuse? getting sordid...turn the other cheek? walk the extra mile??? eyes of needles?? where on earth do you store all these things whilst pulling the trigger? one wonders
and isn't the point that your not supposed to store these things anywhere in order to pull the trigger..but rather simply NOT pull the trigger in spite of all the consequences of doing such a heinous act? or cowardice?? of faith??? of what and in whose name...ah it goes ever on..don't you know...and it bears thinking about especailly when it does not bear thinking about...because that's the time your meant to be thinking about it...etc....no answers there at all.. none what so ever..out side of faith courage conviction and truth...and life gets complex when it takes courage to be viewed as a coward..traitor..now then ...

[Fish]

I think this adds to te thread.

He adds that many of those soldiers—hardcore end-timers and Dominionists—desperately want America to invade Iran, thereby triggering the biblical prophecy of the Rapture.

http://www.motherjones.com/news/upda...weinstein.html


Mikey Weinstein is an attorney and businessman who served 10 years' active duty as an Air Force Judge Advocate (JAG)

Originally Posted by CB..

here we have your basic problem

tho shalt not kill....note it doesn't say thou shalt not kill except when it's a matter of national security it just says thou shalt not kill..oh well lets ignore that one for the time being...as it complicates everything enourmously..

Actually witout the many translations it says 'tho shalt not murder'.

There is a difference.

[Iceman]

The creativity to totally distort what I said amazes me time and again (meaning Iceman here).

Lol..I love ya Skybird

Red is gray and yellow white
And we decide which is right
And which is an illusion?

Unfortunately some people cannot take criticism of their position well. If you don't agree with them and their stance you are either a bigot, spammer, or a fool. When it gets really hot for these individuals you will be placed on the ignore list or told that your disagreement will no longer be tolerated on the thread. A better response is no response as far as they are concerned.

[Konovalov]

Originally Posted by waste gate

told that your disagreement will no longer be tolerated on the thread.

Thats sounds like a teacher about to dish out detention to high school class pupils.

Seriously in every thread there comes a time when people should just draw the line and agree to disagree. An argument can only be advanced so far and you know this point has been reached or indeed crossed when it becomes deeply personal or nasty.

Lets all chill subsimmers.

Originally Posted by Konovalov

Thats sounds like a teacher about to dish out detention to high school class pupils.

Seriously in every thread there comes a time when people should just draw the line and agree to disagree. An argument can only be advanced so far and you know this point has been reached or indeed crossed when it becomes deeply personal or nasty.

Lets all chill subsimmers.

I think your point would have been better served if you quoted my entire post.

[Takeda Shingen]

We've been going on in a circle for nearly three pages. I think it may be time to heed Konovalov's advice.

The Management