F35 - the plane with anything but a stealthy financial footprint

Skybird · 03-07-21, 09:44 AM

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinio...ch-ncna1259781

Quote:

And even the relatively low $80 million-per-F-35 price tag is deceptive, because the F-35 has proven so expensive and challenging to maintain that every hour an F-35 is flown costs $36,000 on average, compared to $22,000 for an F-16. By an alternate metric, the F-35 is over three times more expensive per hourto fly.

My old lament. Too high costs mean smaller numbers, smaller numbers only to some degree can be compensated for by technology superiority (that is dwindling both on stealth and sensors). Even a supoerior plane still has nto developed the capability to be in two or three locations simultaneously. And every single loss weighs the heavier if you have no robust numbers in reserve.

Thats why the F35 never would be my choice.

Mr Quatro · 03-07-21, 11:06 AM

It's sad that the F-35 proves the old ways of obtaining good (piloted) fighting aircraft did not work out.

Too much, too little, too late ... cost over runs, training, manning and stationing have left us worse off.

The future is unmanned fighter planes anyway offenses and defense.

Now the circle starts all over again ... I hope they all go to the great grave yard in the desert unused myself.

Schizo · 03-08-21, 06:05 PM

::sigh:: Every new generation aircraft comes down to the same criticism and speculation as the generation before it. "It's too expensive!" "What's wrong with our current airframe?" Every new generation is leaps beyond what the old was. I like the F-35. Once enough of them are made it will be cheaper to maintain and cheaper to sell, just like the generations before.

But yes. Give it 50 years and it will all be drones most likely.

mapuc · 03-08-21, 06:16 PM

I do not have the book anymore.

History of US air force.

I seem to recall there was huge problems with F-15 Eagle or was it F-14 Tomcat. It was one of these who had lots of childhood diseases.

Markus

3catcircus · 03-09-21, 06:47 AM

To misquote Alvin Holmes:

"What's wrong wit da planes we got? I mean, they fly pretty goooddd, don't they?"

Joking aside, the cost overruns come down to one thing and one thing only: requirements creep.

Von Due · 03-09-21, 11:51 AM

What I'm most curious about when it comes to the F-35 is: How will this design succeed in going against one of the axioms of aircraft design: You can not have one design to master all tasks ahead.
Did they make several designs for different variants to fullfill different roles? Will each variant come at a premium price? Will their customers need to buy multiple variants? Did they really manage to prove the aforementioned axiom wrong and create a jack of all trade? Or is it a design that will do some roles better than others and some roles poorer than competing designs?

AVGWarhawk · 03-09-21, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schizo

::sigh:: Every new generation aircraft comes down to the same criticism and speculation as the generation before it. "It's too expensive!" "What's wrong with our current airframe?" Every new generation is leaps beyond what the old was. I like the F-35. Once enough of them are made it will be cheaper to maintain and cheaper to sell, just like the generations before.

But yes. Give it 50 years and it will all be drones most likely.

I remember the old A-10 Warthog. It was received like a pill of poop in a bag. These still fly today! The F-35 will find her place.

ET2SN · 03-09-21, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

I do not have the book anymore.

History of US air force.

I seem to recall there was huge problems with F-15 Eagle or was it F-14 Tomcat. It was one of these who had lots of childhood diseases.

Markus

Just off the top of my head:

F-14A- Engine stalls at critical angles of attack.

F-16A- Critical gyro for computer control would snap its rotor under high G loading causing total failure of the flight control computer. Faulty O2 system.

F-22A- "Faulty" O2 system/oxygen mask and regulator causing pilot to black out. Speculation was that the F-22 routinely operated at much higher altitude than previous fighters.

mapuc · 03-09-21, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ET2SN

Just off the top of my head:

F-14A- Engine stalls at critical angles of attack.

F-16A- Critical gyro for computer control would snap its rotor under high G loading causing total failure of the flight control computer. Faulty O2 system.

F-22A- "Faulty" O2 system/oxygen mask and regulator causing pilot to black out. Speculation was that the F-22 routinely operated at much higher altitude than previous fighters.

I forgot to mention the most famous fighter jet, which had lots of problems during it lifetime.

F-104 Starfighter or in common F104 The Widowmaker.

Markus

AVGWarhawk · 03-09-21, 02:29 PM

Not to mention the V-22 Osprey that was a disaster from first flight.

Schizo · 03-09-21, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

I remember the old A-10 Warthog. It was received like a pill of poop in a bag. These still fly today! The F-35 will find her place.

Yes, the A-10 is an awesome airframe. I was in an aviation camp as a teenager and we drove down to Connecticut to an Air National Guard base. I got right up to one and was allowed to touch and look at the cockpit. Still remember it clearly to this day.

I used to fly the A-10C quite a bit in DCS World. Nowadays I fly the F-16C most of the time. Both good airframes but if I had to choose one over the other, it would be the F-16C. The A-10C is more fun to fly but the F-16 is a better overall design.

Skybird · 03-09-21, 04:46 PM

They have their individual and defined roles for which they were designed. In these, both serve better than the other. The F16 however can be used in more different roles, that is true.

On your remark about maintenace costs of the F35, read the article again. I doubt it will ever become as cheap as you implied. Its an expensive aircraft, and it remains to be that. Production costs have dropped within the projected plan the producer announced earlier, not more. Wait until the midlife updates begin, and modernizations and system upgrades... If a plane starts its life with maintenace costs three times higher than that of the old wornout airframes it should replace, this is not a good sign (except for the servicing contractor...). Since this is one of the main reasons why older systems get replaced with newer models: using them on has become too expensive since they need more and more maintenace. It will be like this as well when the F35s made today will grow old in the future. Best example is the A-10, it still could fly and fight, and does fill its role better than any other plane in the US inventory. It excels in that role, but maintaining it has become so time- and cost-intensive that they pull(ed) the plug.

Catfish · 03-10-21, 05:16 AM

The problem is as old as the first planes used for war. Throw too much at them and they will not fulfill any single task properly.

The F35 is clearly not a dogfight plane. It can do crazy manoeuvers, but so can its adversaries. They designed it to shoot missiles early enough to take out threats before they come close enough to be dangerous.m I don't know how much missiles it can carry but this looked like a blunder to me since day one. It is not too stealthy either.
The carrier planes have a stronger body to resist starts and landing if you do not use VTOL, they are heavier and have to be inspected all the time due to stress and strain.
I heard it can fly in nice formations automatically

Skybird · 03-10-21, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

I heard it can fly in nice formations automatically

That was an original Catfish!

Bilge_Rat · 03-10-21, 11:52 AM

You have to remember the whole reason behind the F35 program is to be able to meet current threaths.

By the 1998-99 Kosovo operation, it was obvious the current generation of planes, F-15/16/18 were getting long in the tooth, Serbian air defences were able to furstate a lot of missions and the Serbians were not even using the best air defense equipment available at that time.

The F35s were designed to be a lot more "stealthy" so that in the event of a real hot war, whether against Russia, China or whoever, the F35s could fly at night undetected by radar and take out any air defences so that older planes like F15/16/18 could go in and bomb other targets.

Current gen ACs like the F15/16/18 are fine if you are going into an operation in a third world country like Afghanistan where there are no air defences, but would probably suffer heavy casualties in a war against a 1st rate power.

Yes the F35 is expensive, but as has been shown throughout the history of mankind, the cost of building a strong defense to dissuade potential adversaries is cheap compared to the costs of an actual war.

03-07-21, 11:06 AM	#2
Mr Quatro Navy Seal Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 6,772 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	It's sad that the F-35 proves the old ways of obtaining good (piloted) fighting aircraft did not work out. Too much, too little, too late ... cost over runs, training, manning and stationing have left us worse off. The future is unmanned fighter planes anyway offenses and defense. Now the circle starts all over again ... I hope they all go to the great grave yard in the desert unused myself. __________________ pla•teau noun a relatively stable level, period, or condition a level of attainment or achievement Lord help me get to the next plateau ..

03-08-21, 06:16 PM	#4
mapuc CINC Pacific Fleet Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 20,535 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	I do not have the book anymore. History of US air force. I seem to recall there was huge problems with F-15 Eagle or was it F-14 Tomcat. It was one of these who had lots of childhood diseases. Markus __________________ My little lovely female cat

03-09-21, 02:29 PM	#10
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,253 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	Not to mention the V-22 Osprey that was a disaster from first flight. __________________ “You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.” ― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

03-09-21, 04:46 PM	#12
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,603 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	They have their individual and defined roles for which they were designed. In these, both serve better than the other. The F16 however can be used in more different roles, that is true. On your remark about maintenace costs of the F35, read the article again. I doubt it will ever become as cheap as you implied. Its an expensive aircraft, and it remains to be that. Production costs have dropped within the projected plan the producer announced earlier, not more. Wait until the midlife updates begin, and modernizations and system upgrades... If a plane starts its life with maintenace costs three times higher than that of the old wornout airframes it should replace, this is not a good sign (except for the servicing contractor...). Since this is one of the main reasons why older systems get replaced with newer models: using them on has become too expensive since they need more and more maintenace. It will be like this as well when the F35s made today will grow old in the future. Best example is the A-10, it still could fly and fight, and does fill its role better than any other plane in the US inventory. It excels in that role, but maintaining it has become so time- and cost-intensive that they pull(ed) the plug. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

03-10-21, 05:16 AM	#13
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,765 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	The problem is as old as the first planes used for war. Throw too much at them and they will not fulfill any single task properly. The F35 is clearly not a dogfight plane. It can do crazy manoeuvers, but so can its adversaries. They designed it to shoot missiles early enough to take out threats before they come close enough to be dangerous.m I don't know how much missiles it can carry but this looked like a blunder to me since day one. It is not too stealthy either. The carrier planes have a stronger body to resist starts and landing if you do not use VTOL, they are heavier and have to be inspected all the time due to stress and strain. I heard it can fly in nice formations automatically __________________ >^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.

03-08-21, 06:05 PM	#3
Schizo Seaman Join Date: Mar 2021 Location: United States Posts: 31 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	::sigh:: Every new generation aircraft comes down to the same criticism and speculation as the generation before it. "It's too expensive!" "What's wrong with our current airframe?" Every new generation is leaps beyond what the old was. I like the F-35. Once enough of them are made it will be cheaper to maintain and cheaper to sell, just like the generations before. But yes. Give it 50 years and it will all be drones most likely.

03-09-21, 06:47 AM	#5
3catcircus Grey Wolf Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 979 Downloads: 256 Uploads: 0	To misquote Alvin Holmes: "What's wrong wit da planes we got? I mean, they fly pretty goooddd, don't they?" Joking aside, the cost overruns come down to one thing and one thing only: requirements creep.

03-09-21, 11:51 AM	#6
Von Due Sea Lord Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 1,690 Downloads: 30 Uploads: 0	What I'm most curious about when it comes to the F-35 is: How will this design succeed in going against one of the axioms of aircraft design: You can not have one design to master all tasks ahead. Did they make several designs for different variants to fullfill different roles? Will each variant come at a premium price? Will their customers need to buy multiple variants? Did they really manage to prove the aforementioned axiom wrong and create a jack of all trade? Or is it a design that will do some roles better than others and some roles poorer than competing designs?

03-10-21, 11:52 AM	#15
Bilge_Rat Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: standing watch... Posts: 3,855 Downloads: 344 Uploads: 0	You have to remember the whole reason behind the F35 program is to be able to meet current threaths. By the 1998-99 Kosovo operation, it was obvious the current generation of planes, F-15/16/18 were getting long in the tooth, Serbian air defences were able to furstate a lot of missions and the Serbians were not even using the best air defense equipment available at that time. The F35s were designed to be a lot more "stealthy" so that in the event of a real hot war, whether against Russia, China or whoever, the F35s could fly at night undetected by radar and take out any air defences so that older planes like F15/16/18 could go in and bomb other targets. Current gen ACs like the F15/16/18 are fine if you are going into an operation in a third world country like Afghanistan where there are no air defences, but would probably suffer heavy casualties in a war against a 1st rate power. Yes the F35 is expensive, but as has been shown throughout the history of mankind, the cost of building a strong defense to dissuade potential adversaries is cheap compared to the costs of an actual war. __________________