Otto Carius expires

Torvald Von Mansee · 02-03-15, 12:02 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Carius

I am surprised this hasn't been mentioned, yet!!

Platapus · 02-03-15, 06:14 PM

To be honest, until reading your post, I had never heard of him before.

Is his death somehow more noteworthy than other WWI vets that are dying pretty much every day?

Did you know him or his family?

Aktungbby · 02-03-15, 06:42 PM

Platapus! He was the #2 and highest decorated surviving Tiger tank ace of WWII. Wittmann- "the black baron" gets all the publicity but there were three who out scored him. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_Panzer_aces_from_Germany

Stealhead · 02-03-15, 07:43 PM

What that list of aces tells me is that superior industrial capacity and logistics are what wins wars. Besides if I'm gonna pick a WWII German tank without doubt I'd choose the Panther.

Actually I'd choose to be a mechanic working on Shermans first because they where easier to maintain and second I'd severe my country best by being a mechanic over a direct combatant. If I was German then I'd be a Panther mechanic only if all Fw190 crew chief solts where filled.Of course if I was German I'd fell conflicted as I'm not a fan of Nazism but I'd still have to serve being a good citizen.

CCIP · 02-04-15, 01:27 AM

I have immense respects for aces and honest soldiers on all sides. He was quite badly wounded too.

Far from being "just another veteran", Carius was arguably the last living tank ace, at least certainly the last living man with more than 100 tank kills.

This also reminds me that there is only one submarine ace left alive on this planet today (Reinhardt Hardegen, who is 102 years old)

Losing every veteran is equally sad of course - everybody fought and suffered. But I treat figures like this as sort of milestones in our collective memory.

Jimbuna · 02-04-15, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealhead

What that list of aces tells me is that superior industrial capacity and logistics are what wins wars. Besides if I'm gonna pick a WWII German tank without doubt I'd choose the Panther.

Actually I'd choose to be a mechanic working on Shermans first because they where easier to maintain and second I'd severe my country best by being a mechanic over a direct combatant. If I was German then I'd be a Panther mechanic only if all Fw190 crew chief solts where filled.Of course if I was German I'd fell conflicted as I'm not a fan of Nazism but I'd still have to serve being a good citizen.

If you were a Panther mechanic you'd always have the heaviest workload in 'tank for tank' terms. The Panther was a nightmare to keep operational I believe.

Torvald Von Mansee · 02-04-15, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealhead

What that list of aces tells me is that superior industrial capacity and logistics are what wins wars. Besides if I'm gonna pick a WWII German tank without doubt I'd choose the Panther.

Actually I'd choose to be a mechanic working on Shermans first because they where easier to maintain and second I'd severe my country best by being a mechanic over a direct combatant. If I was German then I'd be a Panther mechanic only if all Fw190 crew chief solts where filled.Of course if I was German I'd fell conflicted as I'm not a fan of Nazism but I'd still have to serve being a good citizen.

I remember seeing a stat for Sherman vs KV maintenance. The Sherman needed either 4 hours of maintenance for every hour (or day?) of operation, while the KV series required 16 on the same chronometric.

Torvald Von Mansee · 02-04-15, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

Platapus! He was the #2 and highest decorated surviving Tiger tank ace of WWII. Wittmann- "the black baron" gets all the publicity but there were three who out scored him. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_Panzer_aces_from_Germany

He's just one of those people I was shocked was still alive. And Hardegan is OLDER and still well!!!

Aktungbby · 02-04-15, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torvald Von Mansee

He's just one of those people I was shocked was still alive. And Hardegan is OLDER and still well!!!

Yeah I'm following that with great interest actually and had posted on it . He's still playing golf...way to go Drumbeater!

Fubar2Niner · 02-04-15, 02:12 PM

An amazing thread. Thank you all for pointing this out, I have spent best part the afternoon on wiki ( thanks Aktungbby

) chasing down the history. Not only of Carius, but of the other lesser knowns and there respective panzer groups. Barbarosa, thru to Normandy, Falaise and beyond. Thank you gents

Best regards.
Fubar2Niner

Sailor Steve · 02-04-15, 03:32 PM

Back in 1998 I had the opportunity to talk to a man named Fred Schmid (he emphasized at the time that there was no 't' at the end).

He said at the time that he was then 72, and that he had joined the Wehrmacht at age 17 because his older brother had been killed in a train wreck on his way to start his enlistment. He said he was assigned to a tank on the Russian Front. He said he became a tank commander at age 18 when his commander was killed by a Russian bomber while he was outside the tank relieving himself, and he was the only crew member who could read and write properly, so his fellow tankers elected him leader. They were having a hard time getting replacements in 1944.

Was any of his story true? I don't know, but it was a good story.

Schroeder · 02-04-15, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Back in 1998 I had the opportunity to talk to a man named Fred Schmid (he emphasized at the time that there was no 't' at the end).

He said at the time that he was then 72, and that he had joined the Wehrmacht at age 17 because his older brother had been killed in a train wreck on his way to start his enlistment. He said he was assigned to a tank on the Russian Front. He said he became a tank commander at age 18 when his commander was killed by a Russian bomber while he was outside the tank relieving himself, and he was the only crew member who could read and write properly, so his fellow tankers elected him leader. They were having a hard time getting replacements in 1944.

Was any of his story true? I don't know, but it was a good story.

Never heard of that German troops had difficulties reading and writing. I think that must have been a joke. People still got their basic education before being drafted (at least before 1945 when the Nazis threw everyone to the front who could walk on two legs).

Stealhead · 02-04-15, 08:06 PM

I don't see why it isn't when you are in a world war you need troops badly thus you'll take men that in less desperate times might not be allowed entry.

Both my father and uncle who enlisted in the Army and Air Force in the early 60's explained how in basic they asked for those who had at least two years college raise hands. Next they asked for those unable to read to raise hands. Next they said college boys pick one person who can't read and teach them for the duration of basic training as a result both my father and uncle taught a man how to read in less than 90 days.

I highly doubt that Germany or any country for age group who served in WWII had a 100% literacy rate hell no country today dose.

I'd bet during WWII in any beligerants armed force the functional literacy rate was 70~75% lower in the USSR maybe 65%(based on books by Russian soldiers not picking on Russians).

Schroeder · 02-05-15, 06:16 AM

My grandfather was drafted in 1943 and went through the normal school system like it was peace time. You only need to go through elementary school to be able to read and write. A soldier who is illiterate is severely handicapped especially in an army that loves forms and bureaucracy. He can't read manuals for his gear (I imagine that was quite important for a Tiger crew), can't take notes in briefings, can't read city names on maps, can't write reports. I highly doubt such people would be allowed to operate a Tiger. They would rather be holding a rifle in their hands or a kitchen knife.

Stealhead · 02-05-15, 07:22 AM

Simply because your grandfather was able to read and write just fine dose not mean that every other German solider serving in WWII could as well. All that you say is true yet we also know that no nation has a 100% literacy rate. We also know that every nation has in times of need lowered its requirements in times of need.

Even in a tank one can be trained well enough to understand what needs to be done without having full literacy therefore I find the story told to Sailor Steve to be very plausible.

02-03-15, 12:02 AM	#1
Torvald Von Mansee Sea Lord Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: CA4528 Posts: 1,693 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	Otto Carius expires http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Carius I am surprised this hasn't been mentioned, yet!! __________________ "You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you" - Leon Trotsky

02-03-15, 06:42 PM	#3
Aktungbby Gefallen Engel U-666 Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: On a tilted, overheated, overpopulated spinning mudball on Collision course with Andromeda Galaxy Posts: 30,042 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	Platapus! He was the #2 and highest decorated surviving Tiger tank ace of WWII. Wittmann- "the black baron" gets all the publicity but there were three who out scored him. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_Panzer_aces_from_Germany __________________ "Only two things are infinite; The Universe and human squirrelyness?!!

02-03-15, 07:43 PM	#4
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	What that list of aces tells me is that superior industrial capacity and logistics are what wins wars. Besides if I'm gonna pick a WWII German tank without doubt I'd choose the Panther. Actually I'd choose to be a mechanic working on Shermans first because they where easier to maintain and second I'd severe my country best by being a mechanic over a direct combatant. If I was German then I'd be a Panther mechanic only if all Fw190 crew chief solts where filled.Of course if I was German I'd fell conflicted as I'm not a fan of Nazism but I'd still have to serve being a good citizen. Last edited by Stealhead; 02-03-15 at 07:53 PM.

02-04-15, 01:27 AM	#5
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	I have immense respects for aces and honest soldiers on all sides. He was quite badly wounded too. Far from being "just another veteran", Carius was arguably the last living tank ace, at least certainly the last living man with more than 100 tank kills. This also reminds me that there is only one submarine ace left alive on this planet today (Reinhardt Hardegen, who is 102 years old) Losing every veteran is equally sad of course - everybody fought and suffered. But I treat figures like this as sort of milestones in our collective memory. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

02-04-15, 03:32 PM	#11
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	Back in 1998 I had the opportunity to talk to a man named Fred Schmid (he emphasized at the time that there was no 't' at the end). He said at the time that he was then 72, and that he had joined the Wehrmacht at age 17 because his older brother had been killed in a train wreck on his way to start his enlistment. He said he was assigned to a tank on the Russian Front. He said he became a tank commander at age 18 when his commander was killed by a Russian bomber while he was outside the tank relieving himself, and he was the only crew member who could read and write properly, so his fellow tankers elected him leader. They were having a hard time getting replacements in 1944. Was any of his story true? I don't know, but it was a good story. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

02-03-15, 06:14 PM	#2
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,384 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	To be honest, until reading your post, I had never heard of him before. Is his death somehow more noteworthy than other WWI vets that are dying pretty much every day? Did you know him or his family? __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

02-04-15, 02:12 PM	#10
Fubar2Niner Silent Hunter Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: London. UK Posts: 4,179 Downloads: 279 Uploads: 0	An amazing thread. Thank you all for pointing this out, I have spent best part the afternoon on wiki ( thanks Aktungbby ) chasing down the history. Not only of Carius, but of the other lesser knowns and there respective panzer groups. Barbarosa, thru to Normandy, Falaise and beyond. Thank you gents Best regards. Fubar2Niner

02-04-15, 08:06 PM	#13
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	I don't see why it isn't when you are in a world war you need troops badly thus you'll take men that in less desperate times might not be allowed entry. Both my father and uncle who enlisted in the Army and Air Force in the early 60's explained how in basic they asked for those who had at least two years college raise hands. Next they asked for those unable to read to raise hands. Next they said college boys pick one person who can't read and teach them for the duration of basic training as a result both my father and uncle taught a man how to read in less than 90 days. I highly doubt that Germany or any country for age group who served in WWII had a 100% literacy rate hell no country today dose. I'd bet during WWII in any beligerants armed force the functional literacy rate was 70~75% lower in the USSR maybe 65%(based on books by Russian soldiers not picking on Russians). Last edited by Stealhead; 02-04-15 at 08:21 PM.

02-05-15, 06:16 AM	#14
Schroeder Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Banana Republic of Germany Posts: 6,170 Downloads: 62 Uploads: 0	My grandfather was drafted in 1943 and went through the normal school system like it was peace time. You only need to go through elementary school to be able to read and write. A soldier who is illiterate is severely handicapped especially in an army that loves forms and bureaucracy. He can't read manuals for his gear (I imagine that was quite important for a Tiger crew), can't take notes in briefings, can't read city names on maps, can't write reports. I highly doubt such people would be allowed to operate a Tiger. They would rather be holding a rifle in their hands or a kitchen knife. __________________ Putting Germ back into Germany.

02-05-15, 07:22 AM	#15
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	Simply because your grandfather was able to read and write just fine dose not mean that every other German solider serving in WWII could as well. All that you say is true yet we also know that no nation has a 100% literacy rate. We also know that every nation has in times of need lowered its requirements in times of need. Even in a tank one can be trained well enough to understand what needs to be done without having full literacy therefore I find the story told to Sailor Steve to be very plausible.