Hitler's Britain

[Cybermat47]

We sure have a lot to thank the RAF for

[vienna]

Brings to mind a 1964 film "It Happened Here", a dramatic representation of what Britain might have been like under Nazism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Happened_Here

This film is available on DVD. An interest facet of the film is how long it took to complete and the fact it was essentially a DIY production. Well worth the viewing...


<O>

[Oberon]

Not to dismiss the RAFs actions in any way, but Sealion would have been an unmitigated disaster for the German military.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Not to dismiss the RAFs actions in any way, but Sealion would have been an unmitigated disaster for the German military.

Rgr that...no air or sea superiority...bless the senior service

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Rgr that...no air or sea superiority...bless the senior service

Indeed, and even if by some miracle they had managed to clear a path through Der Kanal, their choice of craft to cross one of the most treacherous waters in Europe was something more useful for crossing an actual canal.
And then there was the mustard gas we were waiting to drop on them when they came ashore, and the various Aux units waiting to sabotage supply routes and harass them.

Either which way, Sealion or Barbarossa, the poor Wehrmacht would be battered.

This is a good read in regards to Sea Lion and its impracticality:
http://www.philm.demon.co.uk/Miscellaneous/Sealion.htm


Oh, and here's a classic 'Axis Victory' film based on the Robert Harris novel:

[Wolferz]

Herr Hitler's insane idea to open three fronts not withstanding, at least he was smart enough not to invade Britain, even after Dunkirk. It would have been a logistical nightmare to say the least.

[Catfish]

But you surely see that Hitler was not interested in invading England. At least until England's declaration of war ? Thus he certainly had no real infrastructure and military for such a strike.

(Even Doenitz had said, remembering WW1: "Why does this have to happen just of all to me, again?")
Hitler was not interested in declaring war on England either, indeed he did not quite understand why England did it to him.

Because of Poland ? Why didn't England also declare war on Russia then ? After all, Russia and Germany had divided Poland between them, and was then attacked and invaded from both sides.
And what about what Russia did to Finland ? The winter war ? Didn't even US volunteers fight for Finland with Germany against Russia, before the english declaration of war?

Hitler had just hoped he would be able to get through with it, as with those other countries before. High stakes, but etc. blahblah..

Hitler's real and only plan was to wage war against the Soviet Union, and for that Poland had to be invaded for marching through - all else happened because of England's declaration of war, from Denmark, to Norway, to France and so on until to a world war.
[/devil's advocate mode]

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Oh, and here's a classic 'Axis Victory' film based on the Robert Harris novel:

Oooh, thanks! Had forgotten that I needed to watch that after reading the book.

[kranz]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Oh, and here's a classic 'Axis Victory' film based on the Robert Harris novel:

the film has such a sad ending...

If you like the alternate history genre, Dick's The Man in the High Castle is a must read.


(can't wait for Sailor Steve's PM about inappropriate language )

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Oberon

This is a good read in regards to Sea Lion and its impracticality:
http://www.philm.demon.co.uk/Miscellaneous/Sealion.htm

I liked this little nugget:

Finally, the barges were under-powered for open water operations, and required towing. The basic unit was a tug towing two barges, and travelling at 2-3 knots, in the Channel, which has tides of 5 knots. Given that the distance that the far left of the invasion had to cross, a minimum of 85 miles, the poor bloody soldiers would be wallowing for a minimum of 30 hours in an open boat, and expected to carry out an opposed amphibious landing at the end of it.

When the Marines decided that Amphibious Warfare was the thing to do just after WWI, the Marines realized there was no type of craft specifically to land troops and heavy gear ashore. So they said screw it we will just use the steam launches from cruisers and battleships to land everything: even tanks.

It is amazing the Marine Corps of the 20's was further along than the German Army of the 40's when it came to Anphib.

[vienna]

It is amazing the Marine Corps of the 20's was further along than the German Army of the 40's when it came to Anphib.

Just one by-product of the Nazi "leadership" being headed by political party lackeys rather than actual experienced, knowledgeable individuals who were more given to accomplishing a realistic goal than trying to please and satisfy the party and its leader. Sad that history has repeated itself since then in US involvement in Iraq ...


<O>

Because of Poland ? Why didn't England also declare war on Russia then ? After all, Russia and Germany had divided Poland between them, and was then attacked and invaded from both sides.

The agreement Britain had with Poland only covered invasion by Germany....
1. (a) By the expression "a European Power" employed in the Agreement is to be understood Germany.
If it was a country other than Germany then.....
(b) In the event of action within the meaning of Article 1 or 2 of the Agreement by a European Power other than Germany, the Contracting Parties will consult together on the measures to be taken in common.
So (a) gives, declare war. (b) gives, lets talk about it.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

I liked this little nugget:
When the Marines decided that Amphibious Warfare was the thing to do just after WWI, the Marines realized there was no type of craft specifically to land troops and heavy gear ashore. So they said screw it we will just use the steam launches from cruisers and battleships to land everything: even our F*ing tanks.

It is amazing the Marine Corps of the 20's was further along than the German Army of the 40's when it came to Anphib.

Well, when you consider that the German army has had little need for major amphibious operations across large bodies of water, and aside from the attack on the UK it would have very little need for it. Invading America would be a big no-no, so there's no need to build them for that, so it just wasn't developed. Small rivers and the like, the German army wasn't too shabby at fording, although obviously they preferred to capture bridges intact. But yes, Catfish is partially correct in that Hitler didn't expect, nor want, war with Britain, heck he had a partial respect for the Empire and its history, and Sealion was really just a half-assed effort to keep the German military busy and if the opportunity presented itself (very unlikely) then it would be ready for implementation, but primarily his mind was on Barbarossa and the Soviets.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Well, when you consider that the German army has had little need for major amphibious operations across large bodies of water, and aside from the attack on the UK it would have very little need for it. Invading America would be a big no-no, so there's no need to build them for that, so it just wasn't developed. Small rivers and the like, the German army wasn't too shabby at fording, although obviously they preferred to capture bridges intact. But yes, Catfish is partially correct in that Hitler didn't expect, nor want, war with Britain, heck he had a partial respect for the Empire and its history, and Sealion was really just a half-assed effort to keep the German military busy and if the opportunity presented itself (very unlikely) then it would be ready for implementation, but primarily his mind was on Barbarossa and the Soviets.

That is interesting in that the Germans launched so may operations outside of continental Europe. They invaded Norway by sea which they did so following much of the Marines' doctrine from the 20's landing troops from warships via the ship's launches. They invaded Crete by air and went to N. Africa by sea plus a lot of their Baltic stuff. With the exception of Norway the Germans tried to have expeditionary warfare without amphibious warfare.

And yes the Germans were good at crossing rivers but look at the Western Allies, some of that anphib gear was great at crossing rivers like the LVT amtrak.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

That is interesting in that the Germans launched so may operations outside of continental Europe. They invaded Norway by sea which they did so following much of the Marines' doctrine from the 20's landing troops from warships via the ship's launches. They invaded Crete by air and went to N. Africa by sea plus a lot of their Baltic stuff. With the exception of Norway the Germans tried to have expeditionary warfare without amphibious warfare.

And yes the Germans were good at crossing rivers but look at the Western Allies, some of that anphib gear was great at crossing rivers like the LVT amtrak.

Oh, definitely, I'm not slating the Amphib quality of the Allies, particularly when you get to the island campaigns and the crossing of the Rhine.