Convoy attack surface or submerged?

07-03-13, 07:41 AM

July, 1940. Grid BE67. Enemy convoy reported. Visual contact estimated around 1800, a couple of hours before sunset. Sea flat, wind 1 m/s, visibility clear. Dive and attack submerged or waiting for darkness and hit'em on the surface? Which way would YOU prefer???

RConch · 07-03-13, 09:24 AM

Track them and wait for dark. No radar involved. Attack at 7m depth.

Enjoy the feast!

Father Goose · 07-03-13, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rconch

Track them and wait for dark. No radar involved. Attack at 7m depth.

Enjoy the feast!

Patience.

Tupolev · 07-03-13, 12:34 PM

I highly agree.

If you're in the proper position you can also determine the escorts' patrol pattern. Then you can time your night attack run when one is far away and ineffective.

desertstriker · 07-03-13, 04:33 PM

always wait till darkness. have snuck by several Destroyers that way and at a range of 1000-2000 meteres

07-04-13, 02:11 AM

Thank you for the quick answers! Well, I'm going to shadow the convoy till sunset and then strike decks awash as Rconch advised. By the way, I was worried about the calm weather in which escorts can detect the boat easier even at night. So do you make ONLY night surface attacks against convoys before radar-fitted escorts appear in '41 and submerged attacks come into question after that?

Gustav Schiebert · 07-04-13, 03:55 AM

Usually I always attack on the surface for the greater situational awareness - easier to keep tabs on where you are in relation to the convoy and plan a second strike while still executing your first. If you're only looking through the keyhole of your 'scope you can't do this, you usually only get one decent shot. Or if you do get two, it needs some Flank Speed and lots of noise to get in position.

If the weather is clear and the sea (as you describe) it makes use of the 'scope a lot easer. Yes, it's easier to spot for the destroyers but at night, over 1,000m, even a scope 2m out of the water is almost impossible to spot. I'd consider a submerged attack if the destroyer screen was particuarly strong.

Priority 1: sink the enemy
Priority 2: look after your boat (so says Doenitz)

So for me the surface situational awareness would be more important than the safety of being underwater. But that's only for early war.

As soon as radar is in, surface attacks are a no-no. I once tried surfacing in the middle of a convoy in poor weather in the dark, thinking they destroyers would be looking outwards and I could hide on the radar screen amongst the merchants. Despite being over 800m from the nearest ship I was spotted instantly and searchlights lit me up like Blackpool Pier. First burst of gunfire killed the 1WO and two watch crew. Crash dived, located by destroyers and sunk. Not sure whether that was bad luck or radar.

07-05-13, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav Schiebert

Priority 1: sink the enemy
Priority 2: look after your boat (so says Doenitz)

Interestingly, I consider it just on the contrary. As I play DiD, the very most important objective for me is to bring all of my crew alive and my boat back to base in one piece. I don't hold myself a coward but I think it's sometimes wiser to "live today and fight tomorrow" since there will always be a next convoy somewhere out in the ocean.

Gustav Schiebert · 07-05-13, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allievo

Interestingly, I consider it just on the contrary. As I play DiD, the very most important objective for me is to bring all of my crew alive and my boat back to base in one piece. I don't hold myself a coward but I think it's sometimes wiser to "live today and fight tomorrow" since there will always be a next convoy somewhere out in the ocean.

I perhaps should say that if I really was a commander of a submarine IRL, I would agree. Playing it that way round in game is my way, as someone who's interested in the history, trying to reflect the agressive spirit of U-boats and the official submarine warfare doctrine.

Karl Heinrich · 07-18-13, 05:47 AM

Agree with Schiebert here, I would definitely agree that on the whole it is much better to live to fight again another day, and the results of the two world wars have really engendered "survival above all" doctrines in most militaries, some more than others.

However if we're going to play DiD, then for me at least, it should be with the same orders and attitude that the real U-Boat crews did. Whilst that mean I might have to start a new campaign sooner than I'd like, at least I have that option, they didn't. Their high attrition rate definitely reflects this approach.

Aktungbby · 08-01-13, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allievo

July, 1940. Grid BE67. Enemy convoy reported. Visual contact estimated around 1800, a couple of hours before sunset. Sea flat, wind 1 m/s, visibility clear. Dive and attack submerged or waiting for darkness and hit'em on the surface? Which way would YOU prefer???

With the sea flat and no wind, go in submerged, scope at the water line as you are highly visible. Preheat your eels and take the Libertys in the stern so they sink stern first which generally stops them for leisurely deck gun disposal when the convoy passes. After dark, if no moon, surface, transfer spare eels and pursue, taking any stragglers and close the convoy astern, decks awash. Destroyers cannot use passsive sonar from the rear. Remember to beacon BDU so other boats can converge. One ship one eel. Get inside the convoy, its safer there as the engine noises confuses the escorts. Viel gluck kaleun

sharkbit · 08-08-13, 02:37 PM

This early in the war, I'd go in surfaced with decks awash(7m), probably no faster than ahead 1/3. Just make sure you are ahead of the convoy before you start making your attack run. Don't get greedy though. Get in, pick your targets, fire, and get out. Rinse and repeat. You keep the initiative when you can remain on the surface. Dive and you lose that initiative. If sucessful, you can probably make two or three attacks that night.

Probably the most satisfying feeling in SH3 is a sucessful night surface attack when you are creeping away on the surface with a couple of ships burning behind you and the escorts are off looking for you and firing starshells in the wrong area.

Enjoy the feast while you can.

Late '42 and on, it becomes very difficult to attack on the surface when there are more and better escorts equipped with radar. By '43, it feels as if surface attacks are next to impossible against convoys.

07-03-13, 07:41 AM	#1
allievo Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Convoy attack surface or submerged? July, 1940. Grid BE67. Enemy convoy reported. Visual contact estimated around 1800, a couple of hours before sunset. Sea flat, wind 1 m/s, visibility clear. Dive and attack submerged or waiting for darkness and hit'em on the surface? Which way would YOU prefer???

07-03-13, 09:24 AM	#2
RConch Captain Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: No. Virginia Posts: 619 Downloads: 518 Uploads: 0	Track them and wait for dark. No radar involved. Attack at 7m depth. Enjoy the feast! __________________ "Noch und Noch" Prowling the Nord Atlantik with GWX 3.0.

07-04-13, 03:55 AM	#7
Gustav Schiebert Sparky Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: AM52 Posts: 151 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	Usually I always attack on the surface for the greater situational awareness - easier to keep tabs on where you are in relation to the convoy and plan a second strike while still executing your first. If you're only looking through the keyhole of your 'scope you can't do this, you usually only get one decent shot. Or if you do get two, it needs some Flank Speed and lots of noise to get in position. If the weather is clear and the sea (as you describe) it makes use of the 'scope a lot easer. Yes, it's easier to spot for the destroyers but at night, over 1,000m, even a scope 2m out of the water is almost impossible to spot. I'd consider a submerged attack if the destroyer screen was particuarly strong. Priority 1: sink the enemy Priority 2: look after your boat (so says Doenitz) So for me the surface situational awareness would be more important than the safety of being underwater. But that's only for early war. As soon as radar is in, surface attacks are a no-no. I once tried surfacing in the middle of a convoy in poor weather in the dark, thinking they destroyers would be looking outwards and I could hide on the radar screen amongst the merchants. Despite being over 800m from the nearest ship I was spotted instantly and searchlights lit me up like Blackpool Pier. First burst of gunfire killed the 1WO and two watch crew. Crash dived, located by destroyers and sunk. Not sure whether that was bad luck or radar. __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] GWX 3 + OLC Gold + 100% Realism + Commander "Attack! Always attack!"

07-18-13, 05:47 AM	#10
Karl Heinrich Soundman Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 146 Downloads: 60 Uploads: 2	Agree with Schiebert here, I would definitely agree that on the whole it is much better to live to fight again another day, and the results of the two world wars have really engendered "survival above all" doctrines in most militaries, some more than others. However if we're going to play DiD, then for me at least, it should be with the same orders and attitude that the real U-Boat crews did. Whilst that mean I might have to start a new campaign sooner than I'd like, at least I have that option, they didn't. Their high attrition rate definitely reflects this approach. __________________ “Die Südfrüchte runter vom Kartentisch. Auf Bananen kann ich nicht navigieren.”

08-08-13, 02:37 PM	#12
sharkbit The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 1,529 Downloads: 334 Uploads: 0	This early in the war, I'd go in surfaced with decks awash(7m), probably no faster than ahead 1/3. Just make sure you are ahead of the convoy before you start making your attack run. Don't get greedy though. Get in, pick your targets, fire, and get out. Rinse and repeat. You keep the initiative when you can remain on the surface. Dive and you lose that initiative. If sucessful, you can probably make two or three attacks that night. Probably the most satisfying feeling in SH3 is a sucessful night surface attack when you are creeping away on the surface with a couple of ships burning behind you and the escorts are off looking for you and firing starshells in the wrong area. Enjoy the feast while you can. Late '42 and on, it becomes very difficult to attack on the surface when there are more and better escorts equipped with radar. By '43, it feels as if surface attacks are next to impossible against convoys. __________________ “Prejudice is blind. There will always be someone who says you aren’t welcome at the table. Stop apologizing for who you are and using all your energy trying to change their minds. Yes, you will lose friends, maybe even family. But you will gain your self-respect. You will know your worth. Once you have that, nothing can stop you.”

07-03-13, 12:34 PM	#4
Tupolev Hauptman Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: FL410 Posts: 174 Downloads: 75 Uploads: 0	I highly agree. If you're in the proper position you can also determine the escorts' patrol pattern. Then you can time your night attack run when one is far away and ineffective.

07-03-13, 04:33 PM	#5
desertstriker Eternal Patrol Join Date: May 2012 Location: mod soup bar and grill Posts: 1,756 Downloads: 998 Uploads: 0	always wait till darkness. have snuck by several Destroyers that way and at a range of 1000-2000 meteres

07-04-13, 02:11 AM	#6
allievo Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Thank you for the quick answers! Well, I'm going to shadow the convoy till sunset and then strike decks awash as Rconch advised. By the way, I was worried about the calm weather in which escorts can detect the boat easier even at night. So do you make ONLY night surface attacks against convoys before radar-fitted escorts appear in '41 and submerged attacks come into question after that?