Ayn Rand

[Skybird]

Just stumble dover her works, and today equipped myself with Atlas Shrugged.

However, she is new ground to me, and research on the web showed me that she is considered to be controversial by not a few people, although a famous poll on the most influential books in the United States had Atlas Shrugged placed on second place directly behind the Bible. It seems her critics tend to see her as what today is called neo-con and that the tea party claims her for themselves. Others more following the path of Murray Rothbard and von Mises seem to claim her for the cause of what they call libertarianism, and Rand herself seems to have named herself as an "objectivist", with that meaning some kind of a catalogue of theorems or principles that are about the relation between reasonable mind and absolute reality forming the basics of a system of natural ethics and ethical behavior.

If I summarize that wrong, forgive me, this is very new stuff for me, I do not claim to have an overview.

I am also aware that after her death a so-called Ayn Rand Institute got founded that as a think tank is even more controversial apparently, and that by some essays I read at a Rand Institute watchgroup website also does not correctly reflect Rand's opinions and views but distorts at least some of them heavily on behalf of neoconservative opinions - in sometime complete opposition to what Rand was thinking about a given issue, for example torture. This club seems to have started to live a life by its own, independent from Rand's views, it seems to me.

Anyhow, I now have a beast of a novel - 1300 pages in fine print, German title is "Der Streik", and this loose collection of impressions and opinions about Ayn Rand, and while I cannot put all that into any order yet since it all is new, I seem to have strayed over a highly influential - in the US at least - name and literature work nevertheless.

So I ask those of you knowing her for your feedback and opinions about the author, and the book, and what both are about. Readers' feedback at US and German Amazon is most enthusiastic, but that must not necessarily match reality. Also, I wonder what public perception she is being given in the contemporary present in the US.

Will start to read it later next week, first I need to finish two other books that are close to their ends.

I suspect, given your numerous posts on the subject, that you will have problems with Rand's view on government:

There is only one basic principle to which an individual must consent if he wishes to live in a free, civilized society: the principle of renouncing the use of physical force and delegating to the government his right of physical self-defense, for the purpose of an orderly, objective, legally defined enforcement. Or, to put it another way, he must accept the separation of force and whim (any whim, including his own).

(source: http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServ..._of_government)

Rand might well be described as libertarian, but she was no anarchist...

[the_tyrant]

Ayn Rand's world horrified me, Atlas Shrugged gives me nightmares.

I mean, in that book, everyone talks politics all the time. Even during sex!

Imagine having sex with this chick, and the moment after orgasm, she turns around, looks you in the eye, and says, we have to eliminate the moochers, and goes on a long monolog of why hard work is the fundamentals of society. Mind you, I would probably feel more comfortable if she wanted to kill me after sex.

I mean, if you read it as a purely entertaining novel, the book is subpar. Poorly written sex scenes, long, LONG monologs, the really in your face political messages, really don't add up to a good story. In fact, Atlas Shrugged really reminds me of Metal Gear Solid, minus the exciting gameplay. Lots of plot, lots of exposition, not much excitement.

However, if you read her book as a political treatise, I would say it is one of the better ones (purely from a literary standpoint). Unlike the Little Red Book, Atlas Shrugged is really focused, Ayn Rand "rambles" but the story and message is still pretty focused. It isn't nearly as dry as The Wealth of Nations, the story does allow you to see her "point". Compared to Das Kapital, Atlas Shrugged at least isn't confusing in its message (I swear that for a few chapters in Das Kapital, Karl Marx was encouraging me to accumulate capital and try to become a capitalist). However, Atlas Shrugged does drag on, and lacks depth in a few key points. Thus, I say that from a certain perspective, I enjoyed The Prince a bit more.

PS: using the words of left wing detractors, AynRand "fetishized the producer". Ayn Rand is REALLY pushy regarding that point. To her, politicians, political activists, and hippies are the lowest of the low (aka, all the time spent protesting could be spent at work goddamnit!). She also makes her contempt for the clergy very obvious in the works.

Thus, if you are a priest or a political activist, don't bother reading her work, to you, it will be a 800 page insult.


But Skybird, I have a feeling you will like the book, just a hunch.

[Wolferz]

Save your eyes and watch the movie. You'll get more out of it.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Wolferz

Save your eyes and watch the movie. You'll get more out of it.

So far there only are two of planned three films. And audience reception and critics' verdicts alike both sank the movies. Some rate them amongst the worst movies ever done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged:_Part_I

[the_tyrant]

Originally Posted by Skybird

So far there only are two of planned three films. And audience reception and critics' verdicts alike both sank the movies. Some rate them amongst the worst movies ever done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged:_Part_I

He was probably trolling you

The movies were so bad, I have seen porn with better acting, camera work, and direction

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by the_tyrant

Ayn Rand's world horrified me, Atlas Shrugged gives me nightmares.

I mean, in that book, everyone talks politics all the time. Even during sex!

Imagine having sex with this chick, and the moment after orgasm, she turns around, looks you in the eye, and says, we have to eliminate the moochers, and goes on a long monolog of why hard work is the fundamentals of society. Mind you, I would probably feel more comfortable if she wanted to kill me after sex.

I mean, if you read it as a purely entertaining novel, the book is subpar. Poorly written sex scenes, long, LONG monologs, the really in your face political messages, really don't add up to a good story. In fact, Atlas Shrugged really reminds me of Metal Gear Solid, minus the exciting gameplay. Lots of plot, lots of exposition, not much excitement.

On the role of sex in the book:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged

"Through Dagny's associations ... Rand illustrates what a relationship between two self-actualized, equal human beings can be ... Rand denies the existence of a split between the physical and the mental, the desires of the flesh and the longings of the spirit."[33]
– Mimi Reisel Gladstein, Ayn Rand and Feminism: An Unlikely Alliance

In rejecting the traditional altruistic moral code, Rand also rejects the sexual code that, in her view, is the logical implication of altruism. In Atlas Shrugged Rand introduces a theory of sex that is based in her broader ethical and psychological theories. Rather than considering sexual desire a debasing animal instinct, Rand portrays it as the highest celebration of human values, a physical response to intellectual and spiritual values that gives concrete expression to what could otherwise be experienced only in the abstract.

In Atlas Shrugged, characters are sexually attracted to those who embody or seem to embody their values, be they higher or lower values by Rand's standards. Characters who lack clear purpose find sex devoid of meaning. This is illustrated in the contrasting relationships of Hank Rearden with Lillian Rearden and Dagny Taggart, by the relationships of James Taggart with Cherryl Brooks and with Lillian Rearden, and finally in the relationship between Dagny and John Galt.

Adultery is committed by three characters throughout the course of the novel. The first and predominate act is that of Hank Rearden, who sleeps with Dagny after the opening of the John Galt Line, to celebrate the success of his metal and her determination to have the line built. The affair continues for some time - even including a cross-country vacation for the two - until Hank's wife finds out; his wife does not want to divorce him, but instead wants to maintain her image as Mrs. Rearden and allows the affair to continue until Hank manipulates the judicial system to obtain a divorce. Later in the novel, as Mrs. Rearden knows the divorce will be processed shortly, she has sex with Dagny's brother James (who is also married, and despises Hank), as an act of revenge for them both against him. Having caught them, James' wife proceeds to commit suicide. Yet adultery is never addressed on moral grounds; the sex is addressed on its own, either as celebration of accomplishment or as an act of revenge.

I read before that in the book the physical appearance of protagonists is described as if meant to correlate with the protagonists "noblesse" in ethical values according to the conceptions by Rand. The more worthless and depending somebody gets described, the uglier he looks, while the more creative and active and noble the person is, the more desirable the physical appearance is described.

I will need to read it and then form an opinion myself on whether that is true or not, and what it means: if it is intentional or a narrative mishap that Rand did not got aware of. I could imagine however that it could be a stylistic method, a narrative tool in order to further illustrate the "value", the orientation of the person described, like in a fairy tale or a Western the villain often gets depicted as being dressed in dark and the hero in light and the innocent in white.

However, if you read her book as a political treatise, I would say it is one of the better ones (purely from a literary standpoint). Unlike the Little Red Book, Atlas Shrugged is really focused, Ayn Rand "rambles" but the story and message is still pretty focused. It isn't nearly as dry as The Wealth of Nations, the story does allow you to see her "point". Compared to Das Kapital, Atlas Shrugged at least isn't confusing in its message (I swear that for a few chapters in Das Kapital, Karl Marx was encouraging me to accumulate capital and try to become a capitalist). However, Atlas Shrugged does drag on, and lacks depth in a few key points. Thus, I say that from a certain perspective, I enjoyed The Prince a bit more.

PS: using the words of left wing detractors, AynRand "fetishized the producer". Ayn Rand is REALLY pushy regarding that point. To her, politicians, political activists, and hippies are the lowest of the low (aka, all the time spent protesting could be spent at work goddamnit!). She also makes her contempt for the clergy very obvious in the works.

Thus, if you are a priest or a political activist, don't bother reading her work, to you, it will be a 800 page insult.

I cannot image that anyone here would suspect I am.

But Skybird, I have a feeling you will like the book, just a hunch.

It better does, 40 Euros is a bit hefty for a book. I briefly considered to get a Kindle just for that monster, but then stick to my principles. They really should have made it two books á 20 Euros per piece. 1300 pages, 7 cm thick: that is not the kind of book you read in bed before switching off the light.

[Spoon 11th]

Wikipedia states that Bioshock is sort of based on this book.

[Skybird]

On "objectivism": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_(Ayn_Rand)

It will be interesting to see whether I can get that together with more relative views of "reality" like in radical constructivism. Possibly constructivism can embrace "objectivism", but right now I find it difficult to imagine that this is also possible the other way around.

[Skybird]

150 pages deep (of 1260 in the German edition), and I love it. I love the descriptions of characters, the way these descriptions are given in vivid and deep-going detail - without making too much words. That means her writing style aims and hits precisely - its economic. I love the moods and atmospheres of places and sceneries coming to life. I like her narrative style. I like the political, philosophical and economical multi-aspect complexity of the book that becomes apparent more and more. I like the presented ideals on what makes man noble and courageous - and what does the opposite. I like that it gives me the feeling of watching an old black-white crime movie from the 40s or 50s. I like the alternative reality setting, the silent undertone of science fiction. I just love it all.

This is a great book both in size and content. Happy that I found it. If you do not know it, check it out.

I only wish they would have published it in two smaller volumes instead of just one big one.

[Platapus]

I guess she is OK as a fiction writer.

[Skybird]

“What is morality", she asked.
"Judgement to distinguish right and wrong, vision to see the truth, and courage to act upon it, dedication to that which is good, integrity to stand by the good at any price. ”

Have read it in one scene, felt a laser engraving it directly into my brain.

[Bubblehead1980]

Great book and if you are intelligent enough to understand the philosophy behind it(a lot of libs are not I have noticed) it will mean something. I have not read the book since I was 18 but it definitely had an impact along with 1984. The Fountainhead is another book of hers you should read after Shrugged. Rand lived under marxism and the evils that collective thinking/actions will inevitably bring upon the people of a nation.Rand went from living a comfortable live until the communists took over, then they were poor and starving, like everyone else, all in the name of fairness though right? lol. Shrugged is sadly, almost prophetic in the sense that all these years later, we are well on the way the dystopian world created in the novel.

[Skybird]

As far as I can say after having read short of one quarter of this epos, I already agree on all that, Bubblehead. It already now rates as one of the most impressive readings I ever stumbled over. A multi-facetted novel for sure.

To complete the biography you already gave, her family then fled from Russia and emigrated finally to America, where she then met and learned capitalism. So communistic collectivism and individualist capitalism - she both saw it at closest range. And the book shows it, both. Maybe her characters are a bit too prototyped - but I think it indeed is a stylistic tool of narration she used there, like I earlier assumed already, also a condensate of her close-range witnessing of both communism and capitalism.

She also had a strong disgust of the state and government and expressed strong hostility towards it. Which however did not stop her to accept to live by state's wellfare at the end of her life. That is the one big contradiction that struck me when reading about her biography.

Atlas Shrugged was her last fiction novel. After that she wrote only philosophical essays anymore.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Skybird

So far there only are two of planned three films. And audience reception and critics' verdicts alike both sank the movies. Some rate them amongst the worst movies ever done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged:_Part_I

Well, the movies were very low budget.

Originally Posted by Skybird

150 pages deep (of 1260 in the German edition), and I love it. I love the descriptions of characters, the way these descriptions are given in vivid and deep-going detail - without making too much words. That means her writing style aims and hits precisely - its economic. I love the moods and atmospheres of places and sceneries coming to life. I like her narrative style. I like the political, philosophical and economical multi-aspect complexity of the book that becomes apparent more and more. I like the presented ideals on what makes man noble and courageous - and what does the opposite. I like that it gives me the feeling of watching an old black-white crime movie from the 40s or 50s. I like the alternative reality setting, the silent undertone of science fiction. I just love it all.

This is a great book both in size and content. Happy that I found it. If you do not know it, check it out.

I only wish they would have published it in two smaller volumes instead of just one big one.

Glad you are enjoying it and getting something out of. Right or wrong, it does make you think.