Free will. Free will?

[Skybird]

Exciting thing. Isd there a free will, are we free to decide? Or not? What are the consequences of any of the two possible answers? An american writer I just have read getting quoted with this: "Of course I believe in free will - I have no other choice than to believe that!"

By now I am out of contact with psychological research, for the most at least, and neuropsychology never was one of my primary interests anyway. But I know that since some time they can scan the brain and understand brain activity patterns in parts of the brain that precede the display and announcing of intention and behavior by seconds.. In other words: the brain already has flipped switches before you become aware of your "free will's" choice or decision for this or that option. Your brain already has decided . seconds before you even get the idea that now by your "free will" you have decided something, have made a choice. Sorry, but neuroscientists have busted this idea. The brain decided, and later the "free will" follows.

In other words, I camp with those claiming that free will is an illusion.

This is a big, tough pill to swallow. However, this must not be a reason to turn fatalistic or to give up trying to differ between right and wrong, good and evil. The following essay I found to be very insightful and humane. I like what he says and I like the way in which he says it.

Life Without Free Will

The author is philosopher and neuroscientist himself.

[Sailor Steve]

Nice article. Even ignoring psychology, Free Will is something thinkers great and small have discussed since there have been thinkers. I myself could write on the subject for hours, or at least a lot of minutes. I do like the comment you quote.

[Armistead]

They're 1000's of factors that form our brains, enviroment, culture, education, religion, genetics, etc. Our choices and will aren't totally our own for sure.

[geetrue]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Nice article. Even ignoring psychology, Free Will is something thinkers great and small have discussed since there have been thinkers. I myself could write on the subject for hours, or at least a lot of minutes. I do like the comment you quote.

I think you should give it the old college try Steve, seriously.

You think you can, therefore you should ... what happens after you have collected your thoughts is up to fate and a publisher. Don't go the wiki route though.

Look at all of the time you already spend reading or absorbing life itself when you could be writing and sharing your soul.

Writing is like a race worry about the finish line when you get there.

I use to be a writer, but I have fallen by the wayside so to speak, in my good days I found that you have to keep at it ...

four or five pages a day, precept upon precept, rule upon rule, inch by inch is a cinch, yard by yard is hard.

Back to sky's wonderful topic, "free will" this is a great history leason for how the United States came into being and then fighting for it's freedom from England.

by the way sky I thought the was about LSD and free will ( LSD is not for me nosiree), but you had a typo of isd in the first sentence lol

[Sailor Steve]

I meant I could write all that right here, boring everybody to tears, if not to death. Write a book? No desires in that direction.

Of course getting paid to bore people is tempting. Mostly I just write music.

They're 1000's of factors that form our brains, enviroment, culture, education, religion, genitals, etc. Our choices and will aren't totally our own for sure.

That works

[Betonov]

But if my brains does the decision before me, without direct influence and completely on its own, that still makes it ''my free will'' since we are talking about MY brain working FREELY

[Tchocky]

Your brain already has decided . seconds before you even get the idea that now by your "free will" you have decided something, have made a choice. Sorry, but neuroscientists have busted this idea. The brain decided, and later the "free will" follows.

I don't see how there is a difference between our "free will" and our brain.

[Sailor Steve]

The deeper question is whether your decision was really yours. I fall in love, I decide to get married. My free will or not? Could I have fallen in love with someone else? Could I have married someone else? Why did I decide on this person and not another? I can claim I made the choice on my own and of my own will, but did I really? I regret mistakes I made in the past, but could I have done it differently? If I could have, why didn't I? If I couldn't have, where is the free will? Am I trapped in a life not of my own making? If that's true, then I truly am trapped. If not, then why can't I get it right? If I have free will, why didn't I do it better? If I don't, why not? Even everyday decisions are influenced by outside factors. It's warm enough today, so I'm going for a bike ride. Why don't I ride when it's colder? Because I don't like the cold? Is that true, or is it just an excuse to avoid riding? Am I riding today because I like to ride when it's warm or am I forcing myself to do something I don't really enjoy because I've convinced myself I should?

I've had the money for a car for several months now, yet I still don't have a car. Is that because I haven't found one that suits me? Is that just an excuse because my last car was wrecked due to a mistake on my part, and I'm secretly afraid to own one again? Should I just find the cheapest car that runs and call it good? Should I wait until just the right one comes along? Do I really have any say in the matter at all? Will my final choice be made through free will, or will I just accept what fate gives me and pretend it was my choice.




And that's just scratching the surface.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

I don't see how there is a difference between our "free will" and our brain.

Usually it's a religious question. Most religions teach that sin or evil was allowed by God to give us free will so that we could decide to choose him or not. This works with the hell doctrine, that if we go there, it's our own choosing. The problem with that is do we as failed human beings with many human factors that effect us really have free will to make the right choice. It's our brain, but it was shaped and indoctrinated to believe what it does.

[geetrue]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Your brain already has decided . seconds before you even get the idea that now by your "free will" you have decided something, have made a choice.

Sorry, but neuroscientists have busted this idea. The brain decided, and later the "free will" follows.

In other words, I camp with those claiming that free will is an illusion.

This is a big, tough pill to swallow. However, this must not be a reason to turn fatalistic or to give up trying to differ between right and wrong, good and evil.

free will can be made captive by others thoughts, but where do those thoughts come from?

I disagree completly with this expert opinion in favor of my own free will thinker Oswald Chambers:

The first great psychological law to be grasped is that the brain and the body are pure mechanisms, there is nothing spiritual about them; they are the machines we use to express our personality.

We are meant to use our brains to express our thought in words, and then to behave according to the way we have thought.

A man’s spirit only expresses itself as soul by means of words; the brain does not deal with pure thought.

No thought is ours until it can be expressed in words. Immediately a thought is expressed in words, it returns to the brain as an idea upon which we can work.

Chambers, Oswald: The Moral Foundation of Life : Hants UK : Marshall, Morgan & Scott, 1996, c1966

Oswald goes on to say that these real thoughts come from the heart, the soul of man not the brain.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Armistead

Usually it's a religious question. Most religions teach that sin or evil was allowed by God to give us free will so that we could decide to choose him or not. This works with the hell doctrine, that if we go there, it's our own choosing. The problem with that is do we as failed human beings with many human factors that effect us really have free will to make the right choice. It's our brain, but it was shaped and indoctrinated to believe what it does.

That's one of the ones I really enjoyed at the Catholic High School I attended. The Augustinian priests there were very open in their discussions.

God may have given us free will, but if he already knows the outcome then how is our decision our own? The difference between predestination and foreordination is as big as the universe, yet so tiny it's only a word or two away.

[Sailor Steve]

No thought is ours until it can be expressed in words. Immediately a thought is expressed in words, it returns to the brain as an idea upon which we can work.

Then maybe it's a good thing I talk to myself so much...

[Betonov]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

God may have given us free will, but if he already knows the outcome then how is our decision our own? The difference between predestination and foreordination is as big as the universe, yet so tiny it's only a word or two away.

He knows the outcome, but doesn't change/control our will

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Betonov

He knows the outcome, but doesn't change/control our will

That's my take on it as well, and that's the difference between predestination and foreordination. Still, it's made for some fun discussions over the years.