The wrong education

[Skybird]

http://www.achgut.com/dadgdx/index.p..._of_education/

That is because today’s graduates are brought up and educated to believe that their imagined intellectual brilliance and personal exceptionality will make up for everything else they are lacking. It’s the result of an education system that confers degrees and qualifications on young people without teaching them anything that would actually make them employable: knowledge, work ethics and some basic business skills.

To be clear, this is not a New Zealand problem. When I recruited for policy researchers in my previous jobs at think tanks in the UK and Australia, I encountered the same issues. Colleagues in Germany tell me they are experiencing the same problems.
(...)
What is even more disturbing about these candidates is that their marks are usually very good. I have even interviewed economics PhDs who couldn’t name a single famous economist and who were blissfully unaware of any economic policy discussions.

lt is equally troubling that candidates’ lack of knowledge inversely correlates with their self-confidence. Cover letters, sometimes stretching over several pages, boast about the candidates’ “very unique [sic]” attributes, and their ability “to think outside the box.” To be blunt, I sometimes wish they could at least think within the box before trying to venture anywhere else. Apart from that, proper grammar and orthography would be a plus but seem to be optional.
(...)
Having to constantly endure these theoretically intelligent and well qualified, but unknowledgeable and underwhelming interviewees, it makes me wonder what has happened in education – primary, secondary, and tertiary – to produce this calibre of candidates.

It seems to have become fashionable to cotton-wool students at school and university. Teaching is no longer primarily about conveying knowledge but encouraging students to develop it themselves. The role of the teacher is no longer as an instructor but rather as a moderator or facilitator.
(...)
At the same time that basic standards in core competencies such as reading, writing and maths decline, grades have bizarrely improved. Again, this is a phenomenon in many developed countries. As a result, one German university now only accepts students for medicine with the best possible school leaving qualification. More and more students achieve what was previously regarded as outstanding and exceptional marks.

Despite this grade inflation across the developed world, Western students are now outclassed by a large margin in the OECD’s PISA assessment by students from China, Singapore and Hong Kong. In maths, sciences, and reading these students leave their Western contemporaries far behind. Perhaps this is because of a greater emphasis in their cultures on hard work, precision and preparation that the West has lost?

[Takeda Shingen]

Another pundit that thinks the answer to education is just work harder. If it was that easy we would have solved things long ago.

Oh and yes, the proper role of the educator at any level is that of facilitator. The sage on the stage who enters the hall at 10, walks to the lectern, opens his notebook, begins reading aloud until 1, closes his notebook and walks out of the hall is an example of the very worst type of educator you can have. A real teacher facilitates learning; he does not dictate it.

[Skybird]

That simple he said things not. But you sound as if he has hit the right nerve.

Over here, there is an inflation of good grades for sure. Better notes for same performance, or same notes for lower performance - that was Germany's reaction to early PISA tests. But more and more students entering university do not meet the minimum needs in maths. Same is true for lower schools, releasing kids that cannot be employed in companies for craftsman jobs without even giving them basic training in correct writing, and elementary math. Heck, that at least is the minimum what they should bring from school, the absolute minimum!

Instead we have had an invasion of "feel good" pedagogues since the lat 60s and early 70s, and the dogma of what in Germany is called "Reformpädagogik", oh I love it so very very much. No longer are standards used to assess the performance of students, but their own judgement has become the standard, their own action experience of how they perceived the process of learning (or not learning) was for them. And when no longer general standards are used to assess performance and skill, but just the subjective self-perception of the performer, the result of such learning successes all too often is called by the name "dilettantism". Not his real skills and abilities, but just what he wants to be in his dreams becomes the standard by which he assesses himself. And that is the prototype of the ideal person for the modern funf-fun-fun society. The dilettant is the hero of the modern present. Politics, banking, economics, opinion-formers, TV talkshow masters - they all have nothing to say and are highly successful by that, or they even do plenty of damage, that like in a fairy tale does not hinder them to boast with it, because external standards are not to which they compare themselves to, but just their own subjective feeling of how they imagine they are. You must not be a skilled, qualified master of your profession anymore: just to imagine that yoiu already are, today is good enough and makes you boasting with how great you are.

No Takeda, your acid reply means little here, the man has it just right. Experiencing oneself and the flow and that grades should not be evertyhing, all that is nice and well, but one thing nobody at schools today likes to get reminded of: the need for discipline. And discipline shows not when the kids learn things that they take interest in anyway, because never had a kid to be told to do what it likes to do anyway. Discipline shows when it sticks to the effort of learning something even when it is not interesting, and is not easy, a problem that does not just collapse under the first eruption of esprit and problem-solving, but takes more time to master. But if this is being talked of, one immediately gets called an "authoritative" backward-oriented drill instructor who damages tender soft children-souls and damages unfolding intellects by overloading them too carelessly. Hahaha. I wonder where the growing number of students who cannot master the four basic calculations in maths and cannot read fluid and cannot write without revealing a discouraging incompetence in grammar, expression and orthography, are coming from, if the new teaching models are so nice and well!? For the German industry, it is a problem, and it costs it money: real, solid money, and much of it. At the same time, really talented, intelligent children get pushed under the wheels and get rolled over as well, for the low standards do not lead them to ever needing to show real endavour and skill, since doing less already is enough to solve excercises and problems and get plenty of appreciations and compliments, and so they get used to problems disappearing before them without them needing to really fight for that. They never learn how to learn. The result is showing a bit later: an extremely low frustration tolerance, followed by a lowering of intrinsic standards to adapt them to the new lower performance level of theirs, and voila: they claim to be fantastic again, because they cope with their frustration by lowering their standards by which they judge themselves. And so, step by step, the self-perception sooner or later hits the ceiling and the boasting knows no limits - while the real skill levels knock at the door to the basement. That is dilettantism in its purest form: when not the real competence and skill and performance counts for a grade or an assessment, but just the imagination of onself that one is great. I must not be competent, it is enough if I just imagine that I am competent. Greetings from Deutschland sucht den Superstar (DSDS), and American Idol - easy-peasy fame for free! The dilettant of today not only knows no shame, but he is a real exhibitionist for sure and even founds a career on his inability. And the others make him a hero for a day.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Skybird

That simple he said things not. But you sound as if he has hit the right nerve.

Over here, there is an inflation of good grades for sure. Better notes for same performance, or same notes for lower performance - that was Germany's reaction to early PISA tests. But more and more students entering university do not meet the minimum needs in maths. Same is true for lower schools, releasing kids that cannot be employed in companies for craftsman jobs without even giving them basic training in correct writing, and elementary math. Heck, that at least is the minimum what they should bring from school, the absolute minimum!

Why are all these students entering these universities? Why are they being retained when they are not passing muster? When you can answer those questions, dear Skybird, you may begin to understand what the problem is. I see the problem first hand every day, dear sweet Skybird. It is not a blog post to me, precious Skybird. It is not an angry rant on an internet forum, beloved Skybird. It is what I deal with every day.

I would suggest some reflection on the subject rather than your typical knee-jerk ranting. Until then, you continue to spit in the wrong direction while congratulating yourself for your brilliance; much like this blogger and countless politicans across the globe. And all the while the system continues to fail.

[Skybird]

My brilliance fades beside yours, dear Takeda.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Skybird

My brilliance fades beside yours, dear Takeda.

It does, but do you have answers to the questions I posted? I know what the answer are, but I want to see if you do, or if you are just spewing hot air on this matter.

[kiwi_2005]

The best education system i am told that NZ need to follow comes from Finland. But our Govt wants nothing of it.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by kiwi_2005

The best education system i am told that NZ need to follow comes from Finland. But our Govt wants nothing of it.

Finland does it right, especially when it comes to things like tuition.

That's the only hint I'll give.

EDIT: By the way, I am not picking on New Zealand. We have exactly the same problems stateside.

[kiwi_2005]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

Finland does it right, especially when it comes to things like tuition.

That's the only hint I'll give.

EDIT: By the way, I am not picking on New Zealand. We have exactly the same problems stateside.

that never entered my mind mate. The tumor out i don't get paranoid anymore, i believe they took out the important part

[Skybird]

Takeda, instead of staging one of your shows again to prove what a clever Dick you are and how clever your talking strategy is to lure the other on thin ice, would it be asked too much of you if you just say in plain words what you have to reply to the article. Could this be done? So far you just attacked me again by your underhanded, poisonous tone from your second reply on (don't try to deny it, we both know that you meant it as a personal volley), and illustrated the amount of your haughtiness, but on the topic you left it to ranting and vague hints in the hope the others - me - would start to dance and jump through firewheels when you blow the whistle. I think I would not be the only one appreciating it if instead of making a show you just would give your arguments - and resulting opinion from these - and leave it to that.

Why I support the view of the article? Because it is not the first time I read that, and more important, because I get feedback supporting these complaints from - let'S see: my best friend is teacher. Another more distant buddy of mine is teacher. My grandfather was teacher. The husband of a close girlfriend of mine is teacher, and her sister is teacher, and two friends of my parents are/were teachers. And my diploma paper was about motivation and approaches to different working styles of economists, psychologists and - teachers. And finally we have the studies being done on the effectiveness, or lack of, of the German schools, which currently is a scene of chaos that is unique in the Western world, as far as I know, due to too many reforms overlapping each other, and partially being reversed again, or only partially implemented, and not just in every state but in every city things are being done slightly different. One thing is clear from the statistical evaluations over the past twenty years: there is too much ideological experimenting, grades went up, but competences in reading, writing and maths, also history, declined - in ALL school models that we have, though in the schools at the lower end of the scale more, and at the better schools (Gymnasiums) less. At the same time, the shortening of schoolyears at Gymnasiums caused more stress on the kids because the old plans of what had to be learned were not cleaned up, but left as they were and then got additional stuff added to them. More stuff in shorter time. With fewer teachers. And more problematic class mixtures in regions with higher migration quotas. Not good.

And this I combine with and link to some more, other books, about the psychology of learning, the pedagogic movement and its forerunners in late 19th century, plus the occasional media input on politics and employers complaining that they must spend more and more money to teach the young people who come from school in even basic math and writing/reading, like the article I linked also complains about (and which btw is not a blog contribution, but a reprint of a NZL newspaper essay). It is an open secret that grades at universities in Europe have seen an inflation in higher grades, and that things have become worse due to the Barcelona process, because friendly professors do not wish to throw sticks between graduates' legs by giving them the grades they deserve - instead they give the grades that are needed, very often. I profiteered from that, too, receiving a final note of 1.2, but I am honest enough to say that that means nothing and that may performances in final exams and the diploma paper all in all were more a 2.5, imo - but one score step you get rewarded extra if it is the final exam. Is it justified by the candidates' performance? No, it is not. The result is that employers with experience simply do not look at notes anymore, because they do not mean much anymore. Is that what things should be like? Why having notes at all, then? Qualifications - is that a thing of the past maybe? In the world of the dilettante, yes. Because as I earlier said: for the dilettante not his skill is what defines his competence, but what he wants to be capable of defines how he sees himself. Its all around us. If you do not believe what I say, open your eyes. Its all around us, everywhere. Happens in the jobs. In schools, in TV shows. The dilettante is the hero of the modern present. Especially when you have cable TV.

The problem I see resulting from

a.) unfit study programs transporting too much praxis-irrelevant stuff in medicine, psychology, too much stuff of outdated or questionable scientific value in social sciences, and too much ideologically motivated stuff in social sciences and education sciences;

and b.) there is a movement away from the old Humboldt ideal of what university education should be about: giving a view on things beyond the rim of one'S own discipline, and there is a trend towards pure economic need and pragmatism, in other words: a reductionist focussing and specialising. Not the Why is being cared for that much anymore, but the How, and the How should financially pay of as fast as possible and lead to products ready to sell. Education, knowledge, insight as a value justifying itself - I fear that is currently an endangered view on things. - This - what I listed under b.) - is effecting economic studies, obviously, but also the hardcore natural sciences physics, chemistry, in parts also biology. Engineering and IT anyway.

How worse it is becoming with university entry tests, the example from Vienna shows that I have quoted in other threads, where for ideological reasons they even tried to lower the needed scores for female candidates - to artificially push the quota of girls studying medicine, which meant that better scoring male candidates were thrown out and males in general have to score better notes to qualify, than girls. By tendency, this is slowly creeping on in most of Europe. In Vienna, students went to the courts, and the university had to annule the procedure - for the moment. Things like this are being tried in most of europe, however. The quote-female has turned into a predatory specimen. And often without women wanting that.

This is why the general niveau of university candidates entering the job arena after having finished university, is declining, like the original article states. But it must be combined with the introductory story of the school education before university, and that is what I have tried to summarize in a previous post, though rough and maybe not complete. I cannot help it, I have several teachers in my social environment, and although they partially like the ideology behind the development and partially do not like it, they all agree that the things I tried to describe here nevertheless take place: they see it in their own daily practice, they say. What I said about low frustration tolerance and the like, and what it does with a child when it does not learn how to learn and lacks a certain minimum of discipline at school and the teacher does not act as a teacher fostering this to some degree, also results from feedback I get from teachers, but also book input, and some basic psychological knowledge and conclusions from that.

You must not see it like this, Takeda. But you did not reply to the article, you just sneered from a high haugthy altitude and gave a hint that you know it better - without saying why and what your arguments are, and you scoff at the author, and left it to that and then, after I explained my own views on schools, in reply you switched to your incredibly friendly, heartwarming tone. But you repeatedly (in the past, together with some others) complained about my claimed "arrogance" and "lecturing" - while you play these parental word lecture games of yours, and not for the first time!?

But I am not one of your students, and I do not depend on getting scores from you. So shove your demonstrations where the sun does not shine. Either you have an argument your different opinion is founding on, or you have not. Playing your underhanded games is something I am really very very very tired of, also the wrong words put in my mouth on past occasions, and the intentional misquoting, and ripping my quotes out of context to give them another meaning - I received your treatement several times, and I saw you treating others whose opinions you did not like in the same way (yubba having been the latest example. This is not to say that I agree with yubba that much, however, but I just identify a behaviour pattern), and that's why I tell you: put some space between yourself and me.

Now feel free to explain why you think the author of the original article is wrong, and give your argument(s). Or let it be. Everything else - is just distraction.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Too long , did not read...

In our country we are now no more grading, but "evaluating" students, not attributing notes from 0-60 (worst/best) but having tons of papers with small boxes that need checkmarks for every skill demonstrated.

o can copy text
o can paste text
o can format text
o can insert graphics into document
o knows appropriate graphics formats to keep filesize small
(...)
o can hook up VGA monitor
o can hook up VGA monitor on DVI connector

and yes, i have seen Dudes that had Masters fail at basic french conjugation, red arrogant letters by guys just out of school that made me both laugh and cry.
All in all...
I also feel an erosion in the education taking place.
That is not to piss on others, for i am one of the mentioned "craftsmen", never been inside a Tertiar school whatsoever, except for an emergency dump at the 'loo.

I am not one to find answers myself by using my IQ, combined with trial and error, i believe in proper guidance in the basic skills along with a lot of effort and mistakes, application of the basic skills in the workshop.

I believe good explanations to make more complex matters understandable are needed, and that, after application of the knowledge, the gained understanding must be questioned to ensure the concept has passed to the trainee.

So the question for me is not what is wrong with some systems.
there seems to be sucky education everywhere.

The question is: How do the Northerners do better in teaching, preparing and evaluating their Kids, Teenagers and Youngsters?

Takeda, instead of staging one of your shows again to prove what a clever Dick you are and how clever your talking strategy is to lure the other on thin ice, would it be asked too much of you if you just say in plain words what you have to reply to the article. Could this be done? So far you just attacked me again by your underhanded, poisonous tone from your second reply on (don't try to deny it, we both know that you meant it as a personal volley), and illustrated the amount of your haughtiness, but on the topic you left it to ranting and vague hints in the hope the others - me - would start to dance and jump through firewheels when you blow the whistle. I think I would not be the only one appreciating it if instead of making a show you just would give your arguments - and resulting opinion from these - and leave it to that.

Have I hacked Takedas account and Steve hijacked Skybirds?

[Wolferz]

Some interesting diatribes describing the current downward shift in the educational paradigm in so called developed countries of the world.
And some spewing of testosterone to go with it.
I will attempt to boil it down to the common misconception of learning by rote and ultimately retaining any of it for a life time in a career.
Ahem, Class. You may leave the lecture as soon as you turn your recording device on. Then, the student gets a tape full of droning with no context to be found.
A brilliant instructor of mine once told us; "It's not about what you know. It's about knowing how to find the information you need at the time that you need it." Most teachers, professors or educators in general do not challenge the minds of the young to seek the answers. Instead they blather on about the subject they specialize in, with no connectivity to anything else. Basically, they only teach linear thinking for the purpose of turning a young mind into a worker bee. A consumer. A pliable mass of putty to be shaped by its environment. Something that can easily be controlled by its superiors.
The young people today are spoiled by instant gratification that requires no work or perserverance.

Welcome to the idiocracy. The matrix has you.

[u crank]

Originally Posted by Wolferz

Welcome to the idiocracy. The matrix has you.

[Wolferz]

Originally Posted by u crank

I snatched the red one as soon as I learned that my teachers were full of crap up to their eyeballs and the rest was sawdust.

I never let my schooling get in the way of my education....Mark Twain