Learning manual targeting

[hatemf90]

Hi all,

Ive just recently started playng HS4 with combination of GFO and RSRDC, and just beginning to learn manual TDC.

it is still hit and miss at this point and even when hit its still very rough targeting. what Im struggling with now is the range finding. The stademieter never gives the accurate range or maybe im just not using it correctly, is there another way to find the range?

also speed estimation which is somehow based on my calculation isnt right either, giving strange speeds like 30 - 50 knots.

Ive watched a few tutorial videos but they were basic and dont add more than what I already know...

are you spending enough time plotting?

sometimes ships make slight course corrections and to read this you need to plot a long enough course to see the pattern and target where the ship will be.

all too often someone targets a ship as though its on a straight course at a steady speed only to miss because the ship changes course when the torp is halfway there.

i am no expert on manual targetting but often its easy to do everything right and still miss because of an unexpected course change and there is nothing you can do but start replotting the new course.

[magic452]

If you are playing with map contacts off I would suggest you turn them on until you learn the game mechanics and how to plot etc.

With contacts on it's pretty easy to plot a target course and get speed and AoB. You will see the target jump head if you are using sonar or radar.
Sonar jumps are every 30 seconds and radar 20.
When the target jumps start the stopwatch and than mark the position on the map. Wait 3 minutes and mark again on a jump. The distance between marks is the target speed divided by 100. 500 yards =5 knots, 1000 yd = 10 knots, etc. this is the three minute rule.

See this post for some more info.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...8&postcount=16

Remember what Webster said about course changes, you may have to plot and trail the target for some time to get a good firing position.
A good firing position is the most important thing you can do to be successful. Attack on your terms not his.

As far as the steadimeter goes stock is pretty much messed up.
There are mods to help this. Ship Centered Accuracy Fix, SCAF, and Max Optics by CapnScurvy here.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=126016


Also even better is Optical Targeting Correction mod OTC. also by CapnScurvy.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=181172


Magic

[Rockin Robbins]

And please keep in mind that our stock stadimeter is still better than the stadimeter in the real sub. When you make it super-effective you misrepresent history to achieve some kind of nebulous mechanical perfection that didn't help in the real war.

The vast majority of times a torpedo was shot it was at a misidentified target with a length error of +-50%, speed error the same and range error at least +-30%. That's why they shot six at a small freighter when we feel that is a complete waste of torpedoes and only shoot one or two, knowing in our fantasy land of stadimeter perfection we'll get the sinkings at 1/4 the cost.

That's fine if you want to KNOW the targeting is precise and can expect hits. It helps you develop your technique. Real sub captains could never know why they got hits or misses. They didn't know much of the time whether their torpedoes missed forward, back or passed under like we do. We live in a fairy godmother fantasy land and expect things to be even more so. The real guys would make fun of us, and not nicely either.

[magic452]

What you say RR is very true but very boring game play as well.
If I wanted to be that bored I'd just watch a soccer game.

Magic

[Sailor Steve]

Well, some of us are history buffs who want to replicate the actual experience. Others are gamers who want a quick thrill.

[Armistead]

I just look at the bow wake and guess speed, course I'm good.

[mike2R]

Originally Posted by magic452

If I wanted to be that bored I'd just watch a soccer game.

At least get the name right :P

Anyway, having just recently started learning manual targeting, what I found really useful was the Attack Map. Now this is grossly unrealistic, but since it shows the correct position of both your ship and the target, as well as a marker indicating where your current TBT settings think the target is and where it is going, you can use it to correct your readings.

And since it gives immediate feedback you can keep on taking repeated readings and checking them, which is a hell of a lot quicker way to get your eye in than shooting torpedoes...

Now of course I've become dependent on it, and guess I'll have to wean myself off it (it really is against the spirit of the thing), but it has helped me a lot learning.

[troopie]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

And please keep in mind that our stock stadimeter is still better than the stadimeter in the real sub. When you make it super-effective you misrepresent history to achieve some kind of nebulous mechanical perfection that didn't help in the real war.

The vast majority of times a torpedo was shot it was at a misidentified target with a length error of +-50%, speed error the same and range error at least +-30%. That's why they shot six at a small freighter when we feel that is a complete waste of torpedoes and only shoot one or two, knowing in our fantasy land of stadimeter perfection we'll get the sinkings at 1/4 the cost.

That's fine if you want to KNOW the targeting is precise and can expect hits. It helps you develop your technique. Real sub captains could never know why they got hits or misses. They didn't know much of the time whether their torpedoes missed forward, back or passed under like we do. We live in a fairy godmother fantasy land and expect things to be even more so. The real guys would make fun of us, and not nicely either.

Awesome post RR! So true and you could not have said it better. I regularly swing between 'realism' and 'quick thrills' whilst also switching between platforms, but I definately get more satisfaction out of 100% and have never yerned for improved sensors.

@Magic: love your 'three minute rule', will definately try it out. I have been using 'length vs time between the posts' but it is very dependant on correct ID and AOB.

So much to learn.

That real sub captains had as much success as they did is incredible!

[JohnnyCarwash]

Originally Posted by troopie

That real sub captains had as much success as they did is incredible!

They often had a little better info then you may be led to believe. I mean, if James Calvert earned the reputation as a TDC wiz, that means he was able to develop accurate data to input. The two conditions (TDC expertise and unknown data) can not exist in the same universe.

They used everything at their disposal. I tend to think they did more basic trig in estimating range using periscope tick marks and estimated mast height, rather than trust a dial and prism's "inaccuracy".

And you can read in many books how solutions that missed were later broken down in the ward room and mistakes found. You can't find mistakes unless you are fairly sure what the data was (supposed to be) in first place.

It is amazing how accurate they could be, especially in mult-ship rapid fire engagements. Remember, their were usually several highly trained officers operating together during tracking and attack, with each team able to check and share information between them. They formed an amazing human computer, and training and doctrine served them well.

[hatemf90]

Thanks guys, great discussion , I also agree with Robins, I was able to make a few near perfect shots with the stock tools.

but I have a few questions:

1) I just fired 2 salvos of 8 torpedoes and they all detonated half way to the target or just after they were fired, is this failure rate normal?

2)what is the maximum range of torps on low/high speed?

3) I want to take the next step and learn how to attack convoys and navy ships, attack with angles other than 90 degrees... etc but I dont know where to begin.

4)I also dont know where to actually find these convoys

[troopie]

Originally Posted by hatemf90

Thanks guys, great discussion , I also agree with Robins, I was able to make a few near perfect shots with the stock tools.

but I have a few questions:

1) I just fired 2 salvos of 8 torpedoes and they all detonated half way to the target or just after they were fired, is this failure rate normal?

2)what is the maximum range of torps on low/high speed?

3) I want to take the next step and learn how to attack convoys and navy ships, attack with angles other than 90 degrees... etc but I dont know where to begin.

4)I also dont know where to actually find these convoys

... not sure about your '8' fish salvos....How to put this?....your stern and bow tubes are diametrically oposed and so the torps will arrive at very different times. Infact if you're much past abeam they will never all reach the same point. The dud torp rate is high as the early US torp stocks in WWII were apparently very unreliable. But 8/8 fail? not gonna hapen. most likely they are just missing.

IIRC there is some stock issues with recognition info? Ie the rec manual data is wrong; ie draught, length, etc? Also the magnetic detonators didn't work for the first few years?

[hatemf90]

Originally Posted by troopie

... not sure about your '8' fish salvos....How to put this?....your stern and bow tubes are diametrically oposed and so the torps will arrive at very different times. Infact if you're much past abeam they will never all reach the same point. The dud torp rate is high as the early US torp stocks in WWII were apparently very unreliable. But 8/8 fail? not gonna hapen. most likely they are just missing.

IIRC there is some stock issues with recognition info? Ie the rec manual data is wrong; ie draught, length, etc? Also the magnetic detonators didn't work for the first few years?

Well no.. I didnt fire stern and bow torps, i fired 4 from the bow, repositioned then fired another 4, non of them even reached the ship, and the plotting wasnt that far off. I guess it was just a really unlucky moment.

[Larrywb57]

Originally Posted by hatemf90

Well no.. I didnt fire stern and bow torps, i fired 4 from the bow, repositioned then fired another 4, non of them even reached the ship, and the plotting wasnt that far off. I guess it was just a really unlucky moment.

In my experience, if the waves are rough and high, it can cause the magnetic detonator to explode before reaching the target. When I start working my plot, I usually check the weather conditions (control+w). Most of the time, I just set the piston from magnetic which is the default to contact. I also use the weather, if the conditions are bad in order to make my escape.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by mike2R

At least get the name right :P

One of my old favorites. On the other hand it was the British who named it "soccer", not us Yanks.