Saudi Arabia wants even more German MBTs

Skybird · 06-19-12, 11:28 AM

http://www.defencetalk.com/german-sa...-report-43221/

Saudis are on buying tour for new tanks, having scratched the American M1A2 off their wish list in favour of the German made Leo-2A7, a version that specialises in desert and urban warfare.

Some time ago it was reported that they wanted 300, which spiked an angry uproar in German parliament, due to the questionable nature of the customer.

As has become known now, the Saudis want even more. The talk is now about 600-800 Leopards. They would be built in Spain, which produces already the Leopardo-2E under license.

While the 10 billion euro deal would help German arms maker Kraus-Maffay who suffers from the shrinking of german forces, and while it may be flattering to see the German tank once again pointing the American rival to second place, I am nevertheless totally opposed to this deal. To deliver your best equipement to your most determined enemy who already plays foul on you and already finances armed attacks against you, is no wise decision. Like I am also against type-214 submarines delivered to Pakistan. I am sure the French or somebody else may have less scruples and would love to replace the Germans in both deals. But still. The lack of wisdom and morals in others cannot be the example I allow myself to get guided by.

Let's see how this ends. German government is split, with CDU-led defemce ministry saying now and FDP-led economy ministry saying yes and Merkel saying nothing and opposition yelling all day long.

joegrundman · 06-19-12, 12:07 PM

yeah, but they don't use MBTs to conduct armed attacks on you, so take the money and be happy

Catfish · 06-19-12, 12:32 PM

In "Defence Talks", right lol.

Also read this morning that the Saudis want to buy 800 Leopard tanks.
And maybe they just paint all those tanks pink to cheer up their population, who knows.

Certainly Germany never delivers weapons in regions of crisis.
But then Saudi-Arabia is a stable, dependable dictatorship.

Skybird · 06-20-12, 06:50 AM

Remarkable.

Of the five owners of Krauss-Maffay, one has spoken out against the deal, saying his family was terrified when they saw TV images of Saudi tanks rolling into Bahrein. He has approached the German president, Gauck, directly, and formally requested him to not give his permission for the deal, if it would ever reach that far a stage that a treaty would be brought up for Gauck to sign.

German link

Herr-Berbunch · 06-20-12, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

. . when they saw TV images of Saudi tanks rolling into Bahrein.

The troops, not tanks, were there at the invitation of the Bahraini government, it wasn't Saudi wanting lebensraum.

Quote:

. . . please note that the Bahraini government appealed to the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) Peninsula Shield forces to enter the Kingdom and help protect vital strategic interests during the days of violence and security unrest.

Source

And the thirty tanks seen crossing the King Fahd Causeway on the back of trailers were Bahraini tanks returning from Kuwait.

Quote:

On the same day, however, the Bahraini government admitted to the existence of the tanks; although it insisted that the vehicles in question had been of Bahraini, not Saudi, origin.
;There are no Saudi Arabian tanks in Bahrain,; Bahrain's information ministry said in a statement on Tuesday. The statement went on to claim that the tanks identified in news reports as having crossed the border Monday evening were Bahraini tanks returning from Kuwait, where they had taken part in national day celebrations.
Tanks identified Monday evening were Bahraini tanks returning from Kuwait National Day celebrations, where military from several allied countries participated in an event commemorating Kuwait's liberation in 1991,; the statement noted.
Bahrain government says no Saudi tanks in country
Kuwait National Day, which commemorates Kuwait's liberation from the British in 1961, falls on February 25. Kuwait Liberation Day, which commemorates the liberation of Kuwait from Iraqi occupation in 1991, falls on February 26.

Skybird · 06-20-12, 08:10 AM

One tyranic autocracy asked another tyrannic autocracy for help, and the latter sent troops and armoured personell carriers to crack down on protesters.

Around 60 people are said to have been shot to death. The number of wounded is unknown, but estimated to be several times as high.

The sectarian violence goes on until today.

And so one of the five owning families of Krauss-Maffay says they were shocked by those Saudi tanks/troops/carriers/whatever moving into Bahrain and helping in putting down protest.

I do not take side in the Bahraini mess. The opposition probabbly is the same kind of fundamentalist mess like in Egypt, Libya, Syria. I just think it is not wise to give our best weapons into the hands of our worst enemies that smile in our faces while they finance terror against us, finance Salafist violence in Germany (currently a prominent chain of events unfolding over here), and rfemain to be an enemy to Israel, all the time arming themselves as well to crck down on any protest movement of their own. The Leopard-2A7 is streamlined for urban warfare and thus is an ideal platform to supress riots or fight in urban civil war.

BarjackU977 · 06-20-12, 11:00 AM

Quote:

I am sure the French or somebody else may have less scruples and would love to replace the Germans in both deals.

Out of curiosity, why did you find relevant to go finger pointing, and why at the French in particular?

Skybird · 06-20-12, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarjackU977

Out of curiosity, why did you find relevant to go finger pointing, and why at the French in particular?

I said "the French or somebody else".

With "somebody else" I have America on mind, of course. They already have sold their buddies big ammonts of platforms of all kind. The French I mentioned because they are not shy at all to offer selling modern ATGM's, attack helicopters, fighterplanes and even nuclear technology to regimes like Gaddafi's Libya in order to sell their dream of the mediterranean Francophile zone of influence which is a hobby of France since long time.

Jimbuna · 06-20-12, 03:29 PM

I should imagine Britain would have loved them to pick the Challenger.

I do wonder though why the need for 800?

Herr-Berbunch · 06-20-12, 04:16 PM

It's a bloody big country!

TLAM Strike · 06-20-12, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

I do wonder though why the need for 800?

Iranian Army: ~1800 MBTs
Syrian Army: ~4,950 MBTs
IDF: 1330 MBTs

Skybird · 06-20-12, 05:28 PM

Syrian army's tanks:

almost half of those 5000 tanks are T-55s. Around 1000 are T-62 and around 1700 are T-72s, the first export model with several weakened features like thinner armour (T-72M). Roughly one quarter of their tanks is mothballed.

Iranian army:

a wild mix of American, British, Russian, Northkorean and Chinese tanks from the 50s, 60s and 70s and 80s. There is no modern tank in their inventory, as far as I know, although they have changed some Chieftains according to their own developement.

In open field battles, both armies do lack the MBTs that could stand against modern Western tanks. They are not only old, but also for the most have no thermals, which is a suicidal handicap. The ammunition is inferior as well, old rounds of overaged design. The tanks are thin-skinned by today's standards.

In other words, what they have is an impressive trek of rolling coffins, from a Western POV.

The Saudis maintain a tank fleet of around 1100 MBTs, amongst them 370 M1A2s, 460 Pattons, and over 300 AMX-30. A wish for 600-800 Leo-2s indicates they want to replace their aging M-60s and AMX on a 1:1 basis.

Kongo Otto · 06-21-12, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Iranian Army: ~1800 MBTs
Syrian Army: ~4,950 MBTs
IDF: 1330 MBTs

I assume you know that neither Syria nor Israel or the Iran have a direct border with Saudi Arabia.
So when it theoretically would came to an conflict with one of the mentioned States the Saudi Army or their assumed enemies would have to track trough Jordania or the Iraq and i highly doubt that one of this countires would allow that.

Otherwise the Saudi Army has as i said before ~780 overaged tanks consisting of M-60 and french AMX 30's which they want to replace.
So what.

Kongo Otto · 06-21-12, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

I should imagine Britain would have loved them to pick the Challenger.

I do wonder though why the need for 800?

The Saudis still have 460 M60A3 and ~300 AMX 30 MBT's which are a bit overaged right now and they want to buy new ones.
So no problem at all imho.

Kongo Otto · 06-21-12, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarjackU977

Out of curiosity, why did you find relevant to go finger pointing, and why at the French in particular?

The 20th Brigade of the Royal Saudi Land Force displays a 155mm GCT self-propelled gun, left, and AMX-10P infantry combat vehicles during Operation Desert Shield.

They bought 90 GCT's, ~300 AMX 30 MBT, 300 Panhard M3 VTT (VTT=APC), 300 Panhard AML, 570 AMX 10P APC's in the past and it wasn't a problem to buy them.

But the biggest weapons supplier is the USA.
So why shouldn't the Germans sell them the Leo's?

Typical german reaction nowadays: "OH my god we sold them weapons and now they use it as weapons."

06-19-12, 11:28 AM	#1
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,611 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Saudi Arabia wants even more German MBTs http://www.defencetalk.com/german-sa...-report-43221/ Saudis are on buying tour for new tanks, having scratched the American M1A2 off their wish list in favour of the German made Leo-2A7, a version that specialises in desert and urban warfare. Some time ago it was reported that they wanted 300, which spiked an angry uproar in German parliament, due to the questionable nature of the customer. As has become known now, the Saudis want even more. The talk is now about 600-800 Leopards. They would be built in Spain, which produces already the Leopardo-2E under license. While the 10 billion euro deal would help German arms maker Kraus-Maffay who suffers from the shrinking of german forces, and while it may be flattering to see the German tank once again pointing the American rival to second place, I am nevertheless totally opposed to this deal. To deliver your best equipement to your most determined enemy who already plays foul on you and already finances armed attacks against you, is no wise decision. Like I am also against type-214 submarines delivered to Pakistan. I am sure the French or somebody else may have less scruples and would love to replace the Germans in both deals. But still. The lack of wisdom and morals in others cannot be the example I allow myself to get guided by. Let's see how this ends. German government is split, with CDU-led defemce ministry saying now and FDP-led economy ministry saying yes and Merkel saying nothing and opposition yelling all day long. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

06-19-12, 12:07 PM	#2
joegrundman Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,689 Downloads: 34 Uploads: 0	yeah, but they don't use MBTs to conduct armed attacks on you, so take the money and be happy __________________ "Enemy submarines are to be called U-Boats. The term submarine is to be reserved for Allied under water vessels. U-Boats are those dastardly villains who sink our ships, while submarines are those gallant and noble craft which sink theirs." Winston Churchill

06-20-12, 06:50 AM	#4
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,611 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Remarkable. Of the five owners of Krauss-Maffay, one has spoken out against the deal, saying his family was terrified when they saw TV images of Saudi tanks rolling into Bahrein. He has approached the German president, Gauck, directly, and formally requested him to not give his permission for the deal, if it would ever reach that far a stage that a treaty would be brought up for Gauck to sign. German link __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

06-20-12, 08:10 AM	#6
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,611 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	One tyranic autocracy asked another tyrannic autocracy for help, and the latter sent troops and armoured personell carriers to crack down on protesters. Around 60 people are said to have been shot to death. The number of wounded is unknown, but estimated to be several times as high. The sectarian violence goes on until today. And so one of the five owning families of Krauss-Maffay says they were shocked by those Saudi tanks/troops/carriers/whatever moving into Bahrain and helping in putting down protest. I do not take side in the Bahraini mess. The opposition probabbly is the same kind of fundamentalist mess like in Egypt, Libya, Syria. I just think it is not wise to give our best weapons into the hands of our worst enemies that smile in our faces while they finance terror against us, finance Salafist violence in Germany (currently a prominent chain of events unfolding over here), and rfemain to be an enemy to Israel, all the time arming themselves as well to crck down on any protest movement of their own. The Leopard-2A7 is streamlined for urban warfare and thus is an ideal platform to supress riots or fight in urban civil war. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

06-20-12, 03:29 PM	#9
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,500 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	I should imagine Britain would have loved them to pick the Challenger. I do wonder though why the need for 800? __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

06-19-12, 12:32 PM	#3
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,766 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	In "Defence Talks", right lol. Also read this morning that the Saudis want to buy 800 Leopard tanks. And maybe they just paint all those tanks pink to cheer up their population, who knows. Certainly Germany never delivers weapons in regions of crisis. But then Saudi-Arabia is a stable, dependable dictatorship.

06-20-12, 04:16 PM	#10
Herr-Berbunch Kaiser Bill's batman Join Date: May 2010 Location: AN72 Posts: 13,203 Downloads: 76 Uploads: 0	It's a bloody big country! __________________

06-20-12, 05:28 PM	#12
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,611 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Syrian army's tanks: almost half of those 5000 tanks are T-55s. Around 1000 are T-62 and around 1700 are T-72s, the first export model with several weakened features like thinner armour (T-72M). Roughly one quarter of their tanks is mothballed. Iranian army: a wild mix of American, British, Russian, Northkorean and Chinese tanks from the 50s, 60s and 70s and 80s. There is no modern tank in their inventory, as far as I know, although they have changed some Chieftains according to their own developement. In open field battles, both armies do lack the MBTs that could stand against modern Western tanks. They are not only old, but also for the most have no thermals, which is a suicidal handicap. The ammunition is inferior as well, old rounds of overaged design. The tanks are thin-skinned by today's standards. In other words, what they have is an impressive trek of rolling coffins, from a Western POV. The Saudis maintain a tank fleet of around 1100 MBTs, amongst them 370 M1A2s, 460 Pattons, and over 300 AMX-30. A wish for 600-800 Leo-2s indicates they want to replace their aging M-60s and AMX on a 1:1 basis. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 06-20-12 at 05:45 PM.