Saudi Arabia wants even more German MBTs
 

http://www.defencetalk.com/german-sa...-report-43221/

Saudis are on buying tour for new tanks, having scratched the American M1A2 off their wish list in favour of the German made Leo-2A7, a version that specialises in desert and urban warfare.

Some time ago it was reported that they wanted 300, which spiked an angry uproar in German parliament, due to the questionable nature of the customer.

As has become known now, the Saudis want even more. The talk is now about 600-800 Leopards. They would be built in Spain, which produces already the Leopardo-2E under license.

While the 10 billion euro deal would help German arms maker Kraus-Maffay who suffers from the shrinking of german forces, and while it may be flattering to see the German tank once again pointing the American rival to second place, I am nevertheless totally opposed to this deal. To deliver your best equipement to your most determined enemy who already plays foul on you and already finances armed attacks against you, is no wise decision. Like I am also against type-214 submarines delivered to Pakistan. I am sure the French or somebody else may have less scruples and would love to replace the Germans in both deals. But still. The lack of wisdom and morals in others cannot be the example I allow myself to get guided by.

Let's see how this ends. German government is split, with CDU-led defemce ministry saying now and FDP-led economy ministry saying yes and Merkel saying nothing and opposition yelling all day long.

yeah, but they don't use MBTs to conduct armed attacks on you, so take the money and be happy :arrgh!:

In "Defence Talks", right lol.

Also read this morning that the Saudis want to buy 800 Leopard tanks.
And maybe they just paint all those tanks pink to cheer up their population, who knows.
:hmm2:

Certainly Germany never delivers weapons in regions of crisis.
But then Saudi-Arabia is a stable, dependable dictatorship. :haha:

Remarkable.

Of the five owners of Krauss-Maffay, one has spoken out against the deal, saying his family was terrified when they saw TV images of Saudi tanks rolling into Bahrein. He has approached the German president, Gauck, directly, and formally requested him to not give his permission for the deal, if it would ever reach that far a stage that a treaty would be brought up for Gauck to sign.

German link

The troops, not tanks, were there at the invitation of the Bahraini government, it wasn't Saudi wanting lebensraum.

Source

And the thirty tanks seen crossing the King Fahd Causeway on the back of trailers were Bahraini tanks returning from Kuwait.

One tyranic autocracy asked another tyrannic autocracy for help, and the latter sent troops and armoured personell carriers to crack down on protesters.

Around 60 people are said to have been shot to death. The number of wounded is unknown, but estimated to be several times as high.

The sectarian violence goes on until today.

And so one of the five owning families of Krauss-Maffay says they were shocked by those Saudi tanks/troops/carriers/whatever moving into Bahrain and helping in putting down protest.

I do not take side in the Bahraini mess. The opposition probabbly is the same kind of fundamentalist mess like in Egypt, Libya, Syria. I just think it is not wise to give our best weapons into the hands of our worst enemies that smile in our faces while they finance terror against us, finance Salafist violence in Germany (currently a prominent chain of events unfolding over here), and rfemain to be an enemy to Israel, all the time arming themselves as well to crck down on any protest movement of their own. The Leopard-2A7 is streamlined for urban warfare and thus is an ideal platform to supress riots or fight in urban civil war.

Out of curiosity, why did you find relevant to go finger pointing, and why at the French in particular?

I said "the French or somebody else".

With "somebody else" I have America on mind, of course. They already have sold their buddies big ammonts of platforms of all kind. The French I mentioned because they are not shy at all to offer selling modern ATGM's, attack helicopters, fighterplanes and even nuclear technology to regimes like Gaddafi's Libya in order to sell their dream of the mediterranean Francophile zone of influence which is a hobby of France since long time.

I should imagine Britain would have loved them to pick the Challenger.

I do wonder though why the need for 800? :hmmm:

It's a bloody big country! :yep:

Iranian Army: ~1800 MBTs
Syrian Army: ~4,950 MBTs
IDF: 1330 MBTs

Syrian army's tanks:

almost half of those 5000 tanks are T-55s. Around 1000 are T-62 and around 1700 are T-72s, the first export model with several weakened features like thinner armour (T-72M). Roughly one quarter of their tanks is mothballed.

Iranian army:

a wild mix of American, British, Russian, Northkorean and Chinese tanks from the 50s, 60s and 70s and 80s. There is no modern tank in their inventory, as far as I know, although they have changed some Chieftains according to their own developement.

In open field battles, both armies do lack the MBTs that could stand against modern Western tanks. They are not only old, but also for the most have no thermals, which is a suicidal handicap. The ammunition is inferior as well, old rounds of overaged design. The tanks are thin-skinned by today's standards.

In other words, what they have is an impressive trek of rolling coffins, from a Western POV.

The Saudis maintain a tank fleet of around 1100 MBTs, amongst them 370 M1A2s, 460 Pattons, and over 300 AMX-30. A wish for 600-800 Leo-2s indicates they want to replace their aging M-60s and AMX on a 1:1 basis.

You put an illiterate tribal moron in a Abrams or Leopard and it might as well be a Sherman or a Pz IV.

The level of training in most Gulf armies is abysmal (except in the elite counter terrorism units). Both for the fighting and the logistical troops, those states contract out their support to the West.

Countries like Syria and Iran while having equipment that is a joke by our standards supports it by them selves and has experience using it.

We are talking about a country where one of the king's nephews ran their flagship aground and broke it's keel.

:D You won't hear me objecting.

But I would not include all of their commanders in the ridiculing. Crew training standard maybe be low, but so it was with the Iraqis as well - during the war '91 some of their commanders nevertheless did their best to set up a fight during the 4-day battle at Basra. These commanders suffered not from lacking competence, but inferior equipment, American commanders reported. I would expect comparing competence - at least determination - from special commandoes and infantry commanders of the Iranian RG guards, who are quite fanatical.

Still, in Syrian and Iranian tank forces I put no faith, especially when they get confronted in the open desert, by modern Western MBTs. Precision, range, sights, ammo and penetration power, armour, speed - they have everything against themselves.

Too bad for them all that there are export limitations on SBP-PE. :D

O_o