One done really well, or many done relatively well?

Ducimus · 02-21-11, 01:08 AM

Considering the "sterling" success of Silent Hunter 5, this would seem like an incredibly stupid question. However, that game deals with Uboats, which is an entirely different scene altogether.

The only reason i think this is even a plausible question in the Pacific theater is because the iconic Fleet Submarine is 6 bow tubes, 4 stern tubes, propeller guard, and look outs in the periscope sheers. Any submarine that doesn't have that, (at least in my opinion) is simply an earlier design evolution, because all boats, ultimately serve the same purpose. That of the Fleet submarine. Originally envisioned as a scout for the fleet, but later used as a long range attack submarine in the largest ocean in the world. ( As opposed to Uboats that had submarines built for different purposes)

Anyway, i'm curious to see how the community feels about the concept of "One boat done really well". As opposed to "many boats done fairly well." as applied to fleet submarines.

( Sometimes i think i get a good idea, but really i might as well be smoking crack. That's what i'm trying to find out here.

)

edit:
The obvious third choice of "Max detail and max choices" intentionally omitted because I cannot deliver that. The second choice has already been delivered, its the first choice thats the hairbrained idea.

razark · 02-21-11, 01:27 AM

I can see the appeal of "One boat done really well". It's been the goal of many fight sims. Model one aircraft, visually and performance-wise, and let the player fly that.

The submarine war in the Pacific, however, doesn't fit into that mold, in my opinion.

As you said, earlier boats were "simply an earlier design evolution" (although, I'm not sure how well that holds for the S-boats), but the constantly improving fleet boat was a very important part of the submarine war in the Pacific. The war began with the earlier boats, some of them very old and outdated, not prepared to fight the kind of war they were being thrown into. As the war progressed, newer design features entered service, with the experience of the older boats directly influencing the newer, and the older boats themselves being modified to keep up. This stream of upgrades and refits adds very much to the feel of a Pacific subsim. Every boat had a part to play in the campaign, so every boat deserves a place in a sim.

That said, if one were to go for the "One boat done really well", I suppose a well done Gato would be the class that would make sense to see done.

magic452 · 02-21-11, 01:43 AM

A well done Gato would suit me very well, I seldom get to the later part of the war as that Ducimus guy always comes up with a new version of TMO so I gotta start all over again.

Not much sense in doing the early boats as you lost them pretty quickly.
You can use a Gato till the end without problem.

Magic

TorpX · 02-21-11, 02:32 AM

I would agree with razark here. The S class and V boats were considered evolutionary "dead ends", but still played their part. There is a tendency to focus on the superlative, late model deluxe item and overlook the crude, early model item, even when the later is equally important in the campaign.

IMO, it is difficult to really appreciate the capabilities of the fleet boats, without having first experienced the limitations of the S-boats.

I'm assuming that your thinking mainly of the interiors though. Don't most of the gameplay/physics challanges apply to all the classes of boats?

razark · 02-21-11, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magic452

I seldom get to the later part of the war as that Ducimus guy always comes up with a new version of TMO so I gotta start all over again.

I know that feeling. If it's not Ducimus, it's one of the other fine modders here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by magic452

Not much sense in doing the early boats as you lost them pretty quickly.

They may not have been the most beautiful gals at the dance, but they stayed for the party:

Code:

USS Barracuda (SS-163)
Decommissioned:               3 March 1945
USS Bass (SS-164):           3 March 1945
USS Bonita (SS-165):         3 March 1945
USS Narwhal (SS-167):       23 April 1945
USS Nautilus (SS-168):        30 June 1945
USS Dolphin (SS-169):        2 October 1945
USS Cachalot (SS-170):      17 October 1945
USS Cuttlefish (SS-171):     24 October 1945
USS Porpoise (SS-172):      15 November 1945
USS Pike (SS-173):            15 November 1945
USS Tarpon (SS-175):        15 November 1945
USS Permit (SS-178):         15 November 1945
USS Plunger (SS-179):        15 November 1945
USS Pollack (SS-180):         21 September 1945
USS Salmon (SS-182):        24 September 1945
USS Seal (SS-183):            15 November 1945
USS Skipjack (SS-184):       28 August 1946
USS Snapper (SS-185):       15 November 1945
USS Stingray (SS-186):       17 October 1945
USS Sturgeon (SS-187):      15 November 1945
USS Sargo (SS-188):          22 June 1946
USS Saury (SS-189):          22 June 1946
USS Spearfish (SS-190):     22 June 1946
USS Sailfish (SS-192):        27 October 1945
USS Seadragon (SS-194):   29 October 1946
USS Searaven (SS-196):     11 December 1946
USS Tambor (SS-198):       10 December 1945
USS Tautog (SS-199):        8 December 1945
USS Thresher (SS-200):     12 July 1946
USS Tuna (SS-203):          11 December 1946
USS Gar (SS-206):            11 December 1945

In addition, some of the old S-boats were running war patrols into 1944.

I'm goin' down · 02-21-11, 02:55 AM

You put 'em in the water and i will try to sail 'em.

Ducimus · 02-21-11, 03:09 AM

I'll just leave the link to something i figured out tonight here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...5&postcount=10
It might change a few minds, or it might not. *shrug* Figured you outta know either way.

Istar · 02-21-11, 04:17 AM

I think having only 1 boat could really help with the immersion factor.
It will really be your boat and your crew. No longer just any boat.
IRL captains where also proud on their boats stating it was the best even if it was an old rust bucket.
Though it would be nice if you could have the option to choose the type of boat at the beginning of the campaign. And after that it would be your boat for the war.

Hylander_1314 · 02-21-11, 06:40 AM

Only one boat? Reminds too much of the old Nintendo Silent Service. Although fun, operating a Balao Class boat in December 1941 is just wrong.

Istar · 02-21-11, 07:13 AM

Who ever said you would get a Balao ? Or even start in 41 ?

Though I can imagine it being a hard question to answer if you don`t know what you will get by going for 1 sub , but you do know (or think you know) what you will give up.
Maybe if it could be made more clear what is to gain by going for one ship people will be more inclined to go for that.
Though I can understand if that is still not 100% known at this point.

Platapus · 02-21-11, 09:07 AM

While, of course, I want the best of all worlds and I want it now and for no cost.

I voted for the one boat modeled very well. I am the type of player that is primarily interested in the simulation of the submarine operations. I would love to have a submarine simulator where I, the player, could occupy the key stations and really run then a accurately as possible in a computer game. For instance, I have always wanted more in depth simulation of the hydrophone and sonar capabilities.

So for the purposes of this poll, put me down for the better "one" instead of the ok "more".

But since you mentioned SH5 in this context, I would like to comment on that.

While I am also less than thrilled with SH5, I believe that it is important to evaluate SH5 on what it intended to be.

In my opinion, SH5 is not a submarine simulator as I consider a submarine simulator (based on what I posted above). SH5 is a submarine commander simulator. There is a big difference and one is not better than the other. They are two different implementations of what a simulator is.

It is my opinion that SH5 had the right goal, but their implementation was off. This is why I can't fairly compare SH5 with SH3 (or SH4 for that matter). SH3/4 are submarine simulators and SH5 is a submarine commander simulation.

If SH5 were "fixed", it still would be a different game from SH3. Some, like me, like the more submarine simulator games but others may like the commander simulator game concept.

Ducimus · 02-21-11, 10:46 AM

Poll results thus far are sorta what i expected.

(Has anyone figured out, i only post polls when i'm up to something? )

AVGWarhawk · 02-21-11, 11:11 AM

I liked the multiple boat done fairly well option. If I get a boat with all the bells and whistles this takes away from the satisfaction of achieving the next boat or the next piece of equipment. To me, the loss of achievable goals other than fulfilling an objective takes away from the game.

razark · 02-21-11, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

(Has anyone figured out, i only post polls when i'm up to something?)

How many times have you "retired" from modding and said "Never again!"?

tomoose · 02-21-11, 01:40 PM

Fairly well suits me as it's always good to have historical options. Getting the refits to work correctly would be fantastic. I'm getting a bit annoyed with accepting a new command and "losing" my surface search radar and not being able to "purchase" it and install it again.
It's my perception that the only way I'll hang on to my "acquired" kit such as SJ radar is to keep the same boat throughout the war if possible.

View Poll Results: One boat done really well, or many boats done fairly well?
Really well works for me, more detail at the expense of options is a reasonable trade off.	28	45.16%
Fairly well works for me, moderate detail is ok as long as i get alot of choices.	34	54.84%
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

02-21-11, 01:08 AM	#1
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	One done really well, or many done relatively well? Considering the "sterling" success of Silent Hunter 5, this would seem like an incredibly stupid question. However, that game deals with Uboats, which is an entirely different scene altogether. The only reason i think this is even a plausible question in the Pacific theater is because the iconic Fleet Submarine is 6 bow tubes, 4 stern tubes, propeller guard, and look outs in the periscope sheers. Any submarine that doesn't have that, (at least in my opinion) is simply an earlier design evolution, because all boats, ultimately serve the same purpose. That of the Fleet submarine. Originally envisioned as a scout for the fleet, but later used as a long range attack submarine in the largest ocean in the world. ( As opposed to Uboats that had submarines built for different purposes) Anyway, i'm curious to see how the community feels about the concept of "One boat done really well". As opposed to "many boats done fairly well." as applied to fleet submarines. ( Sometimes i think i get a good idea, but really i might as well be smoking crack. That's what i'm trying to find out here. ) edit: The obvious third choice of "Max detail and max choices" intentionally omitted because I cannot deliver that. The second choice has already been delivered, its the first choice thats the hairbrained idea. Last edited by Ducimus; 02-21-11 at 01:19 AM.

02-21-11, 01:27 AM	#2
razark Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 2,731 Downloads: 393 Uploads: 12	I can see the appeal of "One boat done really well". It's been the goal of many fight sims. Model one aircraft, visually and performance-wise, and let the player fly that. The submarine war in the Pacific, however, doesn't fit into that mold, in my opinion. As you said, earlier boats were "simply an earlier design evolution" (although, I'm not sure how well that holds for the S-boats), but the constantly improving fleet boat was a very important part of the submarine war in the Pacific. The war began with the earlier boats, some of them very old and outdated, not prepared to fight the kind of war they were being thrown into. As the war progressed, newer design features entered service, with the experience of the older boats directly influencing the newer, and the older boats themselves being modified to keep up. This stream of upgrades and refits adds very much to the feel of a Pacific subsim. Every boat had a part to play in the campaign, so every boat deserves a place in a sim. That said, if one were to go for the "One boat done really well", I suppose a well done Gato would be the class that would make sense to see done. __________________ "Never ask a World War II history buff for a 'final solution' to your problem!"

02-21-11, 01:43 AM	#3
magic452 Sea Lord Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Reno Nevada USA Posts: 1,860 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	A well done Gato would suit me very well, I seldom get to the later part of the war as that Ducimus guy always comes up with a new version of TMO so I gotta start all over again. Not much sense in doing the early boats as you lost them pretty quickly. You can use a Gato till the end without problem. Magic __________________ Reported lost 11 Feb. 1942 Signature by depthtok33l

02-21-11, 02:32 AM	#4
TorpX Silent Hunter Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 3,975 Downloads: 153 Uploads: 11	Poll I would agree with razark here. The S class and V boats were considered evolutionary "dead ends", but still played their part. There is a tendency to focus on the superlative, late model deluxe item and overlook the crude, early model item, even when the later is equally important in the campaign. IMO, it is difficult to really appreciate the capabilities of the fleet boats, without having first experienced the limitations of the S-boats. I'm assuming that your thinking mainly of the interiors though. Don't most of the gameplay/physics challanges apply to all the classes of boats?

02-21-11, 02:55 AM	#6
I'm goin' down Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Notify command we have entered the Grass Sea Posts: 2,822 Downloads: 813 Uploads: 0	Hmmm? You put 'em in the water and i will try to sail 'em.

02-21-11, 03:09 AM	#7
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	I'll just leave the link to something i figured out tonight here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...5&postcount=10 It might change a few minds, or it might not. shrug Figured you outta know either way.

02-21-11, 04:17 AM	#8
Istar Swabbie Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Netherlands Posts: 10 Downloads: 86 Uploads: 0	I think having only 1 boat could really help with the immersion factor. It will really be your boat and your crew. No longer just any boat. IRL captains where also proud on their boats stating it was the best even if it was an old rust bucket. Though it would be nice if you could have the option to choose the type of boat at the beginning of the campaign. And after that it would be your boat for the war.

02-21-11, 06:40 AM	#9
Hylander_1314 Sea Lord Join Date: May 2006 Location: 5 Miles Inland West Of Lake Huron Posts: 1,936 Downloads: 139 Uploads: 0	Only one boat? Reminds too much of the old Nintendo Silent Service. Although fun, operating a Balao Class boat in December 1941 is just wrong. __________________ A legislative act contrary to the Constitution is not law. -John Marshall Chief Justice of the Supreme Court ---------------------

02-21-11, 07:13 AM	#10
Istar Swabbie Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Netherlands Posts: 10 Downloads: 86 Uploads: 0	Who ever said you would get a Balao ? Or even start in 41 ? Though I can imagine it being a hard question to answer if you don`t know what you will get by going for 1 sub , but you do know (or think you know) what you will give up. Maybe if it could be made more clear what is to gain by going for one ship people will be more inclined to go for that. Though I can understand if that is still not 100% known at this point.

02-21-11, 09:07 AM	#11
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,366 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	While, of course, I want the best of all worlds and I want it now and for no cost. I voted for the one boat modeled very well. I am the type of player that is primarily interested in the simulation of the submarine operations. I would love to have a submarine simulator where I, the player, could occupy the key stations and really run then a accurately as possible in a computer game. For instance, I have always wanted more in depth simulation of the hydrophone and sonar capabilities. So for the purposes of this poll, put me down for the better "one" instead of the ok "more". But since you mentioned SH5 in this context, I would like to comment on that. While I am also less than thrilled with SH5, I believe that it is important to evaluate SH5 on what it intended to be. In my opinion, SH5 is not a submarine simulator as I consider a submarine simulator (based on what I posted above). SH5 is a submarine commander simulator. There is a big difference and one is not better than the other. They are two different implementations of what a simulator is. It is my opinion that SH5 had the right goal, but their implementation was off. This is why I can't fairly compare SH5 with SH3 (or SH4 for that matter). SH3/4 are submarine simulators and SH5 is a submarine commander simulation. If SH5 were "fixed", it still would be a different game from SH3. Some, like me, like the more submarine simulator games but others may like the commander simulator game concept. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

02-21-11, 10:46 AM	#12
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	Poll results thus far are sorta what i expected. (Has anyone figured out, i only post polls when i'm up to something? )

02-21-11, 11:11 AM	#13
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,257 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	I liked the multiple boat done fairly well option. If I get a boat with all the bells and whistles this takes away from the satisfaction of achieving the next boat or the next piece of equipment. To me, the loss of achievable goals other than fulfilling an objective takes away from the game. __________________ “You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.” ― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

02-21-11, 01:40 PM	#15
tomoose Grey Wolf Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 930 Downloads: 23 Uploads: 0	Fairly well Fairly well suits me as it's always good to have historical options. Getting the refits to work correctly would be fantastic. I'm getting a bit annoyed with accepting a new command and "losing" my surface search radar and not being able to "purchase" it and install it again. It's my perception that the only way I'll hang on to my "acquired" kit such as SJ radar is to keep the same boat throughout the war if possible.