Academy Torpedo Mission

[Isatin]

*saluts*

Greetings!

I'm at the brink of despair. I want to destroy all five ships on that mission.

I start with the coastal merchant bearing 150 with the aft tube, then I head for the small tanker (50). But it takes too long to position myself to destroy the tanker. If I can get a clean shot on the tanker, I almost lost track of the coastal merchant (240). I know, I can neglect the C2 (it is sooo slow) and the coastal merchant bearing 355 (because the ship does not move until fired upon).

My kill approach is:
Identify target
Determine distance
Adjust AoB
Determine speed of target (2 min 30 sec)
Torpedo Settings (M, 1 m under keel)
Fire

2 of 3 shots I do hit, 1 of 3 shots is a one-shot-skill.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Isatin

(I'm using AOTD-Mod 2.2)

[Sailor Steve]

Do it on the surface. You can outrun all of them. I fire at the stationary one, then surface and head for the tanker, then continue in a clockwise circle until I hit the big boy. Two eels for each guarantees I don't have to sit around waiting to see if they sink.

[Tessa]

When the game first opens mark all the targets where they initially are, then after a few minutes and mark them again. Depending on where you are try and get a 3rd marking so you'll be able to get a more accurate picture of where each ship is heading to in case they go out of visible range. You can stay submerged for the first few attacks if you like, after you reload then surface using your markings to head in the right direction to intercept them and either submerge or attack them on surface. Even if one gets 4000 or 5000m away moving at flank on the surface you'll catch up with them pretty quickly.

[desirableroasted]

Originally Posted by Isatin

Adjust AoB
Determine speed of target (2 min 30 sec)
Torpedo Settings (M, 1 m under keel)
Fire

Most people at the Academy stage have been "taught," either by the "manual" or the tutorial, that shots should be made at an AOB of 90. If you are trying to do that, then your magnetic shots will tend to fail because the torpedo doesn't have enough time to sense the magnetic anomaly and detonate (or if it does, it does so harmlessly on the other side).

So if you are trying 90 AOB, you need to bring your torpedo depth up to 1-2 meters below the waterline so that your torp makes physical impact.

If you do want to use magnetics -- and I almost always do in flat seas -- then keep your depth 1 m below keel, but use an AOB of 10-45/135-170.

[Gargamel]

Originally Posted by desirableroasted

Most people at the Academy stage have been "taught," either by the "manual" or the tutorial, that shots should be made at an AOB of 90. If you are trying to do that, then your magnetic shots will tend to fail because the torpedo doesn't have enough time to sense the magnetic anomaly and detonate (or if it does, it does so harmlessly on the other side).

So if you are trying 90 AOB, you need to bring your torpedo depth up to 1-2 meters below the waterline so that your torp makes physical impact.

If you do want to use magnetics -- and I almost always do in flat seas -- then keep your depth 1 m below keel, but use an AOB of 10-45/135-170.

That kinda goes against the point of using magnetics doesn't it?

I have never seen an magnetic eel miss a target because it overshot it at 90 AOB (I'm not saying it hasn't happened, just I've never seen or heard of it). If you are worried about the pistol not having enough time to detonate, then use a slower speed on the eel so it is guaranteed to detonate. Just because you are 90 AOB doesn't mean you have to use impacts.


But since there is no enemy fire in this scenario, it is easiest to stay surfaced and hike it over to each ship. Tessa gave a great recommendation for keeping track of them. Just remember they will be zig-zagging (IIRC), so you will have to do very close shots for each (<1km).

[desirableroasted]

Originally Posted by Gargamel

That kinda goes against the point of using magnetics doesn't it?

I have never seen an magnetic eel miss a target because it overshot it at 90 AOB (I'm not saying it hasn't happened, just I've never seen or heard of it). If you are worried about the pistol not having enough time to detonate, then use a slower speed on the eel so it is guaranteed to detonate. Just because you are 90 AOB doesn't mean you have to use impacts.


But since there is no enemy fire in this scenario, it is easiest to stay surfaced and hike it over to each ship. Tessa gave a great recommendation for keeping track of them. Just remember they will be zig-zagging (IIRC), so you will have to do very close shots for each (<1km).

I am pretty sure we have very different experience sets that will align the longer you play the game.

The question is not "can a magnetic work?" but "will a magnetic work best?"

And, at 75-105 AOB, the answer is "no." A magnetic at any speed on a short angle is liable to either not detonate or detonate a few meters on the other side (where, granted, it can cause damage).

Since an impact is more reliable at that angle, and even desired in rough seas, "impact at 75-105 AOB" is not a bad doctrine.

Magnetics are the best bang for the buck... but they need to be used at the correct angle.

Gargemel: if you can make a data-based case otherwise, be my guest. I have searched the forums and can see nothing that indicates it. Even on an anecdotal level.

[Tessa]

Originally Posted by Gargamel

That kinda goes against the point of using magnetics doesn't it?

I have never seen an magnetic eel miss a target because it overshot it at 90 AOB (I'm not saying it hasn't happened, just I've never seen or heard of it). If you are worried about the pistol not having enough time to detonate, then use a slower speed on the eel so it is guaranteed to detonate. Just because you are 90 AOB doesn't mean you have to use impacts.


But since there is no enemy fire in this scenario, it is easiest to stay surfaced and hike it over to each ship. Tessa gave a great recommendation for keeping track of them. Just remember they will be zig-zagging (IIRC), so you will have to do very close shots for each (<1km).

If the torpedo runs too deep a 45 degree shot vs a 90 degree shot can make the difference between a hit or miss. In the event cam several times I have seen the eel start moving upwards under the boat but doesn't make contact with the keel as it didn't have enough time under the target to make contact. One more second under the keel can sometimes make or break whether you score a hit or not - granted this is only applicable when either the torpedo (itself) goes deeper than you set it, or your own setting was too deep to begin with.

A 90 degree aob will still hit your target if you have the setting right. By decreasing the aob you give yourself more room for error in your depth settings. If the eel runs 1.5m under the boat the longer it runs under the boat will give it more time to rise upwards and make contact. A 90 shot that low is almost guaranteed to miss where a 30 degree aob setting might still hit it.

[desirableroasted]

Originally Posted by Tessa

If the torpedo runs too deep a 45 degree shot vs a 90 degree shot can make the difference between a hit or miss. In the event cam several times I have seen the eel start moving upwards under the boat but doesn't make contact with the keel as it didn't have enough time under the target to make contact. One more second under the keel can sometimes make or break whether you score a hit or not - granted this is only applicable when either the torpedo (itself) goes deeper than you set it, or your own setting was too deep to begin with.

A 90 degree aob will still hit your target if you have the setting right. By decreasing the aob you give yourself more room for error in your depth settings. If the eel runs 1.5m under the boat the longer it runs under the boat will give it more time to rise upwards and make contact. A 90 shot that low is almost guaranteed to miss where a 30 degree aob setting might still hit it.

Exactly.

[Gargamel]

I'm not arguing that low AOB's aren't better for mag's, because they are.

What I'm arguing is DR's statement that mag's do not work at High AOB's:

If you are trying to do that, then your magnetic shots will tend to fail because the torpedo doesn't have enough time to sense the magnetic anomaly and detonate (or if it does, it does so harmlessly on the other side).

This is telling the guy to never use a magnetic at High AOB's. Yet I have never have had one fail, and yet to find any reference here to one failing either, that wasn't user error or weather related. Clearly they can be set too deep, or the ship lift over the eel. See the recent post about TBP actually taking out the superstructure with an eel (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=186).

Your not going to use impacts against the really big targets, they just don't sink fast enough. You need to use magnetics at keel busting depths. So telling newer players to never use mags is clearly wrong. It's a training mission, and having them learn poor practices early would only lead to their detriment later.

If you are worried about a magnetic running to far under a ship, don't set it as deep, but still slightly deeper then the hull. That way the magnetic influence detonator will have more 'contact' time with the hull.

My point is, telling him that using mag's is wrong because they will almost always fail is misleading.

[desirableroasted]

I hate seeing my words twisted, especially when I love magnetic torpedoes. I never said or hinted at the following:

Originally Posted by Gargamel

DR's statement that mag's do not work at High AOB's... This is telling the guy to never use a magnetic at High AOB's.. telling newer players to never use mags is clearly wrong.

Though I always appreciate being reminded that I, too, was once new here.

Originally Posted by Gargamel

It's a training mission, and having them learn poor practices early would only lead to their detriment later.

But let us calm down. I was just trying to help Isatin.

And, Gargamel, I remember some of your early posts, just four months ago, and how people gave you novice guidance without loading you down with tons of detail and doubt.

But let's move on. We have targets to sink.

My view on torpedoes in early war is, as I have said countless other places on the forum...

• In calm seas (6 knts wind or under), go for magnetic shots under the keel, and try to make them at AOBs of 10-45/135-170. The approach is easier, because you have a range of angles. And these angles tend to put the torpedo under the hull in a cross-ways manner that helps the torpedo detonate.
• At AOB 75-105, however, your chances of effective detonation are higher with an impact shot. This is not to say you won't get a detonation with a magnetic running under the keel, but your chances are better with impacts. (Anyone feeling the need for data can just run the Academy tutorial or a Single Mission 100 times until they can decide for themselves. Seriously, don't trust anyone here, just run the mission over and over, and keep notes, and decide for yourself).
• In rough seas, magnetics tend to detonate prematurely; moreover, an impact in a forward compartment can be quickly fatal due to the ship's momentum forcing water into the compartments. Thus, in these conditions, an impact at AOB 75-105 is best.

I didn't think this up on my own. There are countless others here who say much the same. But, as I have learned over the years, the "doctrine" is always evolving.

Originally Posted by Gargamel

Your not going to use impacts against the really big targets, they just don't sink fast enough.

As I say, I would always prefer to use a magnetic. But dozens of people here have sunk even capital ships with just one impact torpedo. You want to try on a BB? Run the Narvik missions a few times. You will find you can sink a fast-moving BB with a single impact shot. Almost every time.

********

Each has his or her own way of playing the game. That's good.

None of us knows everything we want to know about the game, so we come here and ask questions. That's good.

And, grateful that we get answers about what we don't know, we offer answers when we do know. And that's good, too -- especially when we caveat with "as far as I know through my own experience."

[Gargamel]

I quote your own statement in my previous post, and yet you ignore it?

You have this obsession with knocking down newer players. I may be new to the forums, and new to the game, but I've made it my goal to help other new players the same way I was shown. In a recent thread you had totally discounted one of my posts, simply "because I was new and bumping my post count". Soon after your post went up, I received multiple PM's saying how I should just ignore you, as other people have encountered your bullying ways too.

I do not mind, and I even welcome intelligent, and perhaps sometimes spirited, discussions on topics.

But dismissing one's point of view on a topic, just because they are new, is unacceptable. It also goes against the unwritten mission statement this forum seems to abide by.

I will from now on, ignore you and the closed paradigm you employ, as was encouraged by many other members of this forum.

[the.terrabyte.pirate]

Originally Posted by Gargamel

What I'm arguing is DR's statement that mag's do not work at High AOB's:

I didn't read anywhere in the thread where DR wrote mags do not work at 90 degree AOB, but he did write that they were less effective. I'm not sure that anyone has any facts or figures to back this up apart from years of experience playing the game.

This fact has been the general consensus on these forums for years, and the current acceptable method seems to be either a 90 degree shot on impact, or a narrower / wider angle under the keel on magnetic to give the eel the best chance of detonating while still under the hull.

DR did write that a 90 degree magnetic detonation early or late may still cause damage, but it was less effective than a detonation under the hull.

Now, getting back on topic.

I passed the test using the following technique:

1) Aim for the stationary ship in front of you. Run an eel under the keel on magnetic setting, fast speed. Aim at the very front of the ship because as soon as it notices the eel trail it'll steam forward. Aiming at the front of the ship give a detonation at the middle / stern of the ship, and will usually sink.

2) Proceed clockwise ignoring the large merchant. Plot their courses so that you don't lose them if they exceed visual range. Run on the surface and get close, 500 - 700 meters at 90 degrees, and ping them one by one. An eel on impact near the front of the ships usually guarantees a sinking in time, but will definitely slow the ships down.

3) Put an eel into each ship as previously mentioned, tracking them down with your previous plots. Finally put two eels into the large merchant.

4) Working clockwise from the large merchant, deliver a Coup de grace to any merchies that have the temerity to stay afloat.

5) Return to base for cocktails.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by the.terrabyte.pirate

I 1) Aim for the stationary ship in front of you. Run an eel under the keel on magnetic setting, fast speed. Aim at the very front of the ship because as soon as it notices the eel trail it'll steam forward. Aiming at the front of the ship give a detonation at the middle / stern of the ship, and will usually sink.

But be very careful not to aim in front of the front, because he is a genius, and when he sees the torpedo will miss he won't bother to move at all.

[frau kaleun]

I can remember a time when that little stationary ship between me and the big ship was the bane of my SH3 existence.

If I aimed AT him, somehow it would always miss.

If I didn't aim at him, somehow I would end up hitting him instead of the other ship.

I may have to go back and have some fun with the Torpedo training, I didn't even know about magnetics then.

[Missing Name]

I found that the academy always fails me in the torpedo test, even if I sink all five in a short period of time, with one shot per target.

And similarly, I eliminated ALL the ships in the convoy training mission. Again, "unsatisfactory."