Realistic qualification timeline using SH3 Commander

[sub_nuc_108]

I've searched the forums for an answer to my question, and I'm sorry if I've missed past threads. I'm happy to receive a link to the right thread if someone can find it.

I'm running SH3 with GWX 3.0 and SH3 Commander. I've just finished my first patrol and it is time for crew management.

I have found many posts on qualifications schemes, and historically accurate strategies for giving promotions and awarding medals. What I am looking for are realistic strategies for awarding qualifications. I have POs without any quals: was it realistic that they could earn a new qual during a single 20 day patrol in 1939? How often would officers earn new quals? I currently have three officers qualified helmsman and one qualified watch.

From my experience as US submarine officer ten years ago, I know that qualification time depends on many factors: needs of the boat, the difficulty of the qual, the standards of the captain, and the discipline of the officer or sailor. For example, if the Submarine Ball is in a few weeks, and everyone wants one of the newer officers to stay behind and stand watch as Command Duty Officer, then the qualification can suddenly happen very quickly. Or, on the other hand, if you arrive on the boat and three other officers have just qualified submarines, you may have a very long wait!

Of course, qualifications aboard a German U-Boat were certainly a very different story.

Thanks for any suggestions!

[Sailor Steve]

I was only Seaman 1st still training for Radioman when I got out forty years ago, so there are a lot more people around here qualified (sorry) to answer that than I am. But...

Originally Posted by sub_nuc_108

I have POs without any quals: was it realistic that they could earn a new qual during a single 20 day patrol in 1939? How often would officers earn new quals? I currently have three officers qualified helmsman and one qualified watch.

My question is, is there such a thing as an unqualified petty officer? My understanding is that you don't advance to that level until you have actually become adept in your assigned position. I therefore give all of my POs a skill right off the bat.

Just the opposite of yourself, I have three officers with Watch quals, and consider them my 1WO, 2WO and Obersteuerman (Navigator), and treat them as such. My LI (Chief engineer) comes already qualified in Repair, and I have a fifth, and junior, officer to whom I gave a Machinist rating. I probably should have waited in his case, and will do so in the future.

All that said, I don't know what the actuality was, or is. I'm just assuming several things based on what I think I've read.

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

My question is, is there such a thing as an unqualified petty officer? My understanding is that you don't advance to that level until you have actually become adept in your assigned position. I therefore give all of my POs a skill right off the bat.

That's my take on it as well. I usually wait until after my first shakedown patrol and then use Commander to hand out qualifications. Usually though when I let Commander give me a "realistic" crew to start with, some guys already have them, for instance I'll already have 2 NCOs with Torpedo quals in the torpedo compartments and a Maschinist in the engine room. And a couple with Watchman and Helmsman qualifications as well.

I give Radio quals to both guys in the Radio room, add a deck gun qual to my Watch Officer, and give one of the remaining NCOs a flak gun qual. Whoever is left over among the NCOs gets one qual each, either Repair, Maschinist, or Torpedoman depending on where they're assigned and what I'm lacking.

I will also sometimes give a Repair qual to my Weapons Officer, since that means I can assign him to damage control if necessary and still have my LI in the control room.

[sub_nuc_108]

Thanks for your replies so far. I have figured out that I started my career in SH3 commander without checking the "realistic" box for the crew. Now your replies are making a lot more sense.

Thanks!

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by sub_nuc_108

I want to be clear about the difference between officers, NCO's, and seamen. The officers can have three quals, right? SH3 Commander gave me four officers (in addition to me): three qualified as helmsmen, and one as watch. All are Overfahnrich z. S.

Then I have the NCO's (mine are all bootsmaan). Two are qualified machinist, two torpedomen, one medical, and one watch. The rest are unqualified.

The remaining crewmembers are seamen, who do not earn quals.

There is a section in the SH3 Commander user guide that addresses these issues, i.e., how many qualifications the game itself will actually recognize for (commissioned) officers, NCOs, and the rest of your crew. For instance, you can give enlisted men qualifications in Commander if you want to, but the game will not recognize them and they will not have any effect on game play. You can give an NCO extra qualifications but if you go over the number that the game will recognize, the extra quals will have no effect on gameplay. I can't remember offhand how many quals the game will recognize for officers and NCOs, but check the user guide, it's all laid out there.

I assume that if you're giving out quals in the game itself and not in Commander, the game itself will prevent you from awarding more quals to a crewmember than his rank will allow.

So, you are saying that the guys in the radioroom are qualified NCOs? And your Watch Officer is an officer, not an NCO? And your weapons officer is also an officer, and not an NCO?
Thanks!

The guys in MY radio room are qualified NCOs, yes indeed. I can't really remember being given a crew where the radioroom was not occupied by two NCOs but if was I'd just switch people around so I had two in there, and then give them both Radioman quals when we returned to port.

In my experience (which is limited to Type VII patrols, I don't know what the makeup is for boats that carry a smaller or larger crew) the positions of chief engineer (CE), weapons officer (WP), navigator (NA), and watch officer (WO) will all be filled by commissioned officers. The first three are automatically stationed in the control room and the last one on the bridge when you start a patrol.

(This deviates a bit from standard practice in the Kriegsmarine, where IIRC the head navigator was typically not a commissioned officer but a senior NCO who also functioned as the third watch officer. The first and second watch officers would be commissioned line officers and second/third in line of command after the commander himself.)

Basically, in the game, if you go to the crew management screen, all your commissioned officers will appear as head/face icons in the squarish boxes in the control room, on the bridge, or whatever other compartment. Only the commissioned officers can fill those slots, and if a guy is in one of those slots, he's a commissioned officer.

Any guy who you see as a "whole body" icon in one of the other smaller and more numerous slots is an NCO or enlisted man. If he's wearing a brown jacket he's an NCO, if he's wearing a blue sailor suit he's an enlisted man.

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by sub_nuc_108

Thanks for your replies so far. I have figured out that I started my career in SH3 commander without checking the "realistic" box for the crew. Now your replies are making a lot more sense.

Thanks!

Yep, that would no doubt make a difference!

[sub_nuc_108]

Wow--thanks for your thorough answer Frau Kaleun! I understood most of this before, but your response makes everything very clear. I started up a new career as a test, this time using the "realistic crew" option in SH3 Commander, and now the crew looks like what you have described.

I am quite familiar with the page you referenced from the SH3 Commander manual. If the nuclear Navy has done nothing else for me, it has at least taught me to RTFM! It's completely automatic now. I read the SH3 manual, the Grey Wolves manual, the SH3 Commander manual, etc., before I even started the game. A sickness, I know. But in the submarine force, reading the manual was the number one way to cover your rear. If something went wrong, at the inquiry one of the first questions to be asked was "what procedure was being followed?"

Thanks again! There's a lot of great experience and knowledge on this forum.

[Sailor Steve]

I wrote out a long reply regarding officers and men only to get a 'Can't display the page' message. I took a break and got back online only to find the post I was responding to deleted. No problem, since you figured out the answer yourself.

Originally Posted by frau kaleun

The guys in MY radio room are qualified NCOs, yes indeed. I can't really remember being given a crew where the radioroom was not occupied by two NCOs but if was I'd just switch people around so I had two in there, and then give them both Radioman quals when we returned to port.

I usually keep one radio-qualified PO and one rating (common sailor) in the radio room, and switch them out every four hours, so I have two qualified radiomen total. In the control room I have a helm-qualified PO in the standing position and two ratings at the planes. I keep several qualified machinists rotating through the engine room. I've already listed my officers.

(This deviates a bit from standard practice in the Kriegsmarine, where IIRC the head navigator was typically not a commissioned officer but a senior NCO who also functioned as the third watch officer. The first and second watch officers would be commissioned line officers and second/third in line of command after the commander himself.)

I know Das Boot is hardly history, but the officer characters serve to help explain. Of course Der Alte is the captain, and holds the rank of Kapitanleutnant. The Chief was an Oberleutnant, as was the nazi 1WO. 2WO (the joker) was a Leutnant. Kriechbaum, the Obersteuerman (Navigator) was an Oberfanrich, which is somewhat akin to an Ensign, and Ulmann, the boy with the French girlfriend, was a Fanrich, or Cadet Officer, on his first cruise.

On my boat the Repair-trained Oberleutnant is the LI, and always goes in the left slot, so he's always the guy standing at the front of the control room. The leutnant with the cap is my 1WO, and in combat he is always in the right-side control room slot, which puts him at the attack desk. The other leutnant is my 2WO, and he is mainly part of the watch rotation, but in a surface attack he is always on the bridge. I know the 1WO would do that in real life, but he can't be the game's WE from there. I give one oberfanrich a Watch qual also, and he and the two leutnants rotate through the watch and control positions every four hours. The other oberfanrich is either Machine or Torpedo qualified, and goes to the proper place in combat. Normally he acts as assistant Engineer and relief for the LI.

Anal? Me? No way!

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by sub_nuc_108

If the nuclear Navy has done nothing else for me, it has at least taught me to RTFM!

The modders are going to LOVE you.

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I know Das Boot is hardly history, but the officer characters serve to help explain. Of course Der Alte is the captain, and holds the rank of Kapitanleutnant. The Chief was an Oberleutnant, as was the nazi 1WO. 2WO (the joker) was a Leutnant. Kriechbaum, the Obersteuerman (Navigator) was an Oberfanrich,

I am 99.99999999999999% sure* that Kriechbaum was a chief petty officer, not an Oberfahnrich. I would have to watch the movie again to be sure but IIRC he wears the insignia and uniform of a senior NCO, not a CO/line officer. And everything I've read (non-fiction) re this indicates that the position of chief navigator/quartermaster was typically filled by a senior petty officer, not a CO.

*Edit: After checking the book I am 100% sure he's a petty officer, since Buchheim lists him as such. Don't think the movie would've changed that.

[ryanglavin]

Welcome sub nuc!

I didn't know you served way back when steve.

If it means anything from a hopeful submariner/U.S. Marine,

I give you two my thanks for serving our country in times of need.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by frau kaleun

*Edit: After checking the book I am 100% sure he's a petty officer, since Buchheim lists him as such. Don't think the movie would've changed that.

And I was going on memory that the book had him as an officer. Of course my copy is in storage and I can't look.

On the other hand that would make sense, as he was a little older and had four kids, and the captain treated him almost as a consultant, asking his opinion and such. Now I have to give a PO back that Watch rating.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by ryanglavin

I didn't know you served way back when steve.

Take a good close look at my avatar.

Oh, beans! Everybody knows how much I love to show off that picture.

[DaveP63]

Is that a can?

[ryanglavin]

I thought it was just a 16 inch gun, never looked further. Cool, though.