Future Modding of SH3 when SH5 is released

Stoker · 01-28-10, 02:09 PM

Hi, Last year I started a new thread in regards to a 8 km horizon for NYGM. During that thread Stiebler made an interesting statement.

Stieblers Quote:

"There are no plans to make one, because the official release of SH5 is becoming close. When SH5 is released, it is very likely that all modders for SH3 will be asked by Ubisoft to stop supporting SH3. This is what happened to the 'Pacific Aces' team of SH2 when SH4 was released. Since Ubisoft owns the copyrights of the original games, they have every right to make this request".

If this request does indeed happen, and given all the bombshells coming out about SH5 (only VII boats,War ends 1943,DRM etc), are there any modders out there who will honour this request?. Any views?

CaptainNemo12 · 01-28-10, 02:13 PM

Looking at all the great mods that are WIP at the moment, I don't think SH3 modding will stop anytime soon.

Jimbuna · 01-28-10, 02:30 PM

I think there is life in the old dog yet

FIREWALL · 01-28-10, 02:37 PM

I don't think Ubisoft has the "Balls" to tell the modders to stop on SH3.

Or that they'll listen. The modders that is.

urfisch · 01-28-10, 02:47 PM

i think sh3 might be a good ressource for porting things over to sh5...or the other way round.

Hitman · 01-28-10, 02:49 PM

I don't remember that we were told to stop modding, nor officially or indirectly via Neal. By the time PA was complete, SH3 was still in beta status and so superior that any comparison was impossible.

We did discuss many times what we should do to not displease UBI, and we consulted it many times with Neal, specially before making PA a subsim-com bonus mod, but that's all.

With Sh5 things could eventually be different, because SH3 is not so far away from Sh5 in terms of scope and quality as SH2 was from SH3, and also it seems that SH5 will be born with the huge handicap of the silly DRM. But let's wait and see what happens ... normally publishesr tend to forget about the older stuff once they have released a new product, and in any case, tell people to stop modding is like trying to put walls in the country.

CWorth · 01-28-10, 03:05 PM

Try and stop people modding SH3 due to SH5... With the controversial new DRM,the limited scope of the SH5 in terms of playable subs(one actually) and limited years to play in I really cannot see it doing to well for Ubi this time around. Sure people will jump on it simply because of "OOOOHHH pretty graphics" but I think the actual die hard sim fans will stick to what they have now with SH3 and SH4 which to me are superior to what I have seen with SH5 in terms of actual content. This is juts my opinion of course. Time will tell but I just do not see modding stopping anytime soon with SH3.

=FI=Ghost · 01-28-10, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoker

"There are no plans to make one, because the official release of SH5 is becoming close. When SH5 is released, it is very likely that all modders for SH3 will be asked by Ubisoft to stop supporting SH3. This is what happened to the 'Pacific Aces' team of SH2 when SH4 was released. Since Ubisoft owns the copyrights of the original games, they have every right to make this request".

If this request does indeed happen, and given all the bombshells coming out about SH5 (only VII boats,War ends 1943,DRM etc), are there any modders out there who will honour this request?. Any views?

I am not sure what international law says on copyrights and property, but in my opinion, if you have bought a game, you own it as your private property; thus, you can do whatever you want with it as long as you don't use it to gain financial benefits. So, I think that Ubisoft did not have a right to ask that, and modders have every right not to obey if they are asked to stop. Modding a game is a process that you do with something that you own, and sharing a mod without gaining financial profits is completely legal.

I am not really a lawyer, and I don't have to be right, but I think that's how things are..

CWorth · 01-28-10, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by =FI=Ghost

I am not sure what international law says on copyrights and property, but in my opinion, if you have bought a game, you own it as your private property; thus, you can do whatever you want with it as long as you don't use it to gain financial benefits. So, I think that Ubisoft did not have a right to ask that, and modders have every right not to obey if they are asked to stop. Modding a game is a process that you do with something that you own, and sharing a mod without gaining financial profits is completely legal. I am not really a lawyer, and I don't have to be right, but I think that's how things are..

Thing is that is really iffy. Legally you do not own the software you are mearly paying a license fee to use it on your own computer but Ubi still owns full rights to that program. Gaming rights and such are a very grey area in terms of laws as they have never been really placed in any position to be tried in a court of law over these kinds of issues. I really have no clue where Ubi would or would not have any say in these kinds of matters.They do legally own all rights and claims on the softwaere you are using but as to whether they can say you need to stop modding a game that has been modded from day 1 of its release I don't think they could do that honestly. Most courts in my experience would look at it like they have been allowing it all these years and now they are saying you can't do it.Simply would not fly by what I know of the law. Not a lawyer myself just going off of what I have seen and read in other law cases.

=FI=Ghost · 01-28-10, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CWorth

Thing is that is really iffy. Legally you do not own the software you are mearly paying a license fee to use it on your own computer but Ubi still owns full rights to that program. Gaming rights and such are a very grey area in terms of laws as they have never been really placed in any position to be tried in a court of law over these kinds of issues. I really have no clue where Ubi would or would not have any say in these kinds of matters.They do legally own all rights and claims on the softwaere you are using but as to whether they can say you need to stop modding a game that has been modded from day 1 of its release I don't think they could do that honestly. Most courts in my experience would look at it like they have been allowing it all these years and now they are saying you can't do it.Simply would not fly by what I know of the law. Not a lawyer myself just going off of what I have seen and read in other law cases.

I see, thanx for clearing that out.

The most important thing here is that, in my opinion, SH III (and IV) will continue to live on as long as there are people like us; and so will the modding for these two.

sabretwo · 01-28-10, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CWorth

Thing is that is really iffy. Legally you do not own the software you are mearly paying a license fee to use it on your own computer but Ubi still owns full rights to that program. Gaming rights and such are a very grey area in terms of laws as they have never been really placed in any position to be tried in a court of law over these kinds of issues. I really have no clue where Ubi would or would not have any say in these kinds of matters.They do legally own all rights and claims on the softwaere you are using but as to whether they can say you need to stop modding a game that has been modded from day 1 of its release I don't think they could do that honestly. Most courts in my experience would look at it like they have been allowing it all these years and now they are saying you can't do it.Simply would not fly by what I know of the law. Not a lawyer myself just going off of what I have seen and read in other law cases.

That's all true. Plus, there's another factor to consider. For such a legal action (request for injunction, lawsuit, other..) to be worth the legal expense from a business perspective, there must be a real loss to the plaintiff. In the case of mods for old games, it's impossible to quantify the potential loss in new game sales. It would be a serious waste of legal funds to chase modders around because of fear that a great modded old game will be more attractive than a new one.

The same P&L-driven mindset that decided to implement DRM would logically decide pursuing SH3/SH4 modders is purely a waste of money regardless of whether their license gives them merit for an injunction.

Hitman · 01-28-10, 03:58 PM

Disclaimer!: Not willing to start a legal discussion here, but as jurist I will tell you some things I know. Not for further discussion, but for simple information.

The intellectual property is not protected by the contents of a stupid license you supposedly accept when you install the game, for the very simple reason that you had no chance to negotiate it with the company. That's what we call in Spain "general contracting conditions" or unnegotiated conditions. The contents of the intellectual property is defined by the law, and anything in the EULA that is against the law, or the laws that rule customers rights in the EU simply is considered as not put there, as a protection of teh customer. Period.

Now, regarding the contents and extents of the intellectual property of the code by UBI, they could theoretically enforce a prohibition to MODIFY their stuff, using it as a base, but NOT to release for free stuff that is not based in their property. This, for example, includes any new graphic that you create from scratch and can be used to replace an original SH3 one. There could be a deep argumentation about the extents of what would and not be prohibited, but as I have already said, this is not something I would like to happen here.

The official subsim.com position on this matter, else Neal says something different is:

We will respect any decission that UBI makes regarding such questions. If UBI wants the modding of their products to stop in subsim.com forums, so be it. Subsim.com will not enter legal discussions or unfriendly relationship with gaming companies, unless something very serious would justify it. And the modding thing is right now not such a reason.

Now please, let the thread continue but avoid legal discussions, and let those for lawyers in the courts.

=FI=Ghost · 01-28-10, 05:28 PM

Let's just hope that it won't come to that. Even if it does, tough, we can always move to another forum

JScones · 01-29-10, 02:04 AM

I'm tempted to do some more work on SH3Cmdr simply because I am not sensing a mass exodus to SH5 just yet.

CptCrunch · 01-30-10, 03:40 AM

I agree that SH3 has a lot of life in it yet.
Until SH5 comes out we really don't know if the mystical 'immersion factor' will be as good as the eye candy.
We'll just have to see.
I'm going to have to replace my PC to play SH5 - at the moment that might be a struggle.
But the real killer is that I read somewhere else in the forum that Ubi will cease server support for SH3 sometime this year
i.e. after SH5 comes out -
So SH3 will not be killed but neither will it be encouraged to thrive

01-28-10, 02:09 PM	#1
Stoker Watch Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 19 Downloads: 70 Uploads: 0	Future Modding of SH3 when SH5 is released Hi, Last year I started a new thread in regards to a 8 km horizon for NYGM. During that thread Stiebler made an interesting statement. Stieblers Quote: "There are no plans to make one, because the official release of SH5 is becoming close. When SH5 is released, it is very likely that all modders for SH3 will be asked by Ubisoft to stop supporting SH3. This is what happened to the 'Pacific Aces' team of SH2 when SH4 was released. Since Ubisoft owns the copyrights of the original games, they have every right to make this request". If this request does indeed happen, and given all the bombshells coming out about SH5 (only VII boats,War ends 1943,DRM etc), are there any modders out there who will honour this request?. Any views?

01-28-10, 02:30 PM	#3
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,525 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	I think there is life in the old dog yet __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

01-28-10, 02:37 PM	#4
FIREWALL Eternal Patrol Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CATALINA IS. SO . CAL USA Posts: 10,108 Downloads: 511 Uploads: 0	I don't think Ubisoft has the "Balls" to tell the modders to stop on SH3. Or that they'll listen. The modders that is. __________________ RIP FIREWALL I Play GWX. Silent Hunter Who ???

01-28-10, 02:47 PM	#5
urfisch Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Deep down in Germany Posts: 1,969 Downloads: 42 Uploads: 0	i think sh3 might be a good ressource for porting things over to sh5...or the other way round. __________________

01-28-10, 02:49 PM	#6
Hitman Pacific Aces Dev Team Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Spain Posts: 6,109 Downloads: 109 Uploads: 2	I don't remember that we were told to stop modding, nor officially or indirectly via Neal. By the time PA was complete, SH3 was still in beta status and so superior that any comparison was impossible. We did discuss many times what we should do to not displease UBI, and we consulted it many times with Neal, specially before making PA a subsim-com bonus mod, but that's all. With Sh5 things could eventually be different, because SH3 is not so far away from Sh5 in terms of scope and quality as SH2 was from SH3, and also it seems that SH5 will be born with the huge handicap of the silly DRM. But let's wait and see what happens ... normally publishesr tend to forget about the older stuff once they have released a new product, and in any case, tell people to stop modding is like trying to put walls in the country. __________________ One day I will return to sea ...

01-28-10, 02:13 PM	#2
CaptainNemo12 Frogman Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 307 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	Looking at all the great mods that are WIP at the moment, I don't think SH3 modding will stop anytime soon.

01-28-10, 03:05 PM	#7
CWorth Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Gettysburg PA Posts: 845 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Try and stop people modding SH3 due to SH5... With the controversial new DRM,the limited scope of the SH5 in terms of playable subs(one actually) and limited years to play in I really cannot see it doing to well for Ubi this time around. Sure people will jump on it simply because of "OOOOHHH pretty graphics" but I think the actual die hard sim fans will stick to what they have now with SH3 and SH4 which to me are superior to what I have seen with SH5 in terms of actual content. This is juts my opinion of course. Time will tell but I just do not see modding stopping anytime soon with SH3.

01-28-10, 03:58 PM	#12
Hitman Pacific Aces Dev Team Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Spain Posts: 6,109 Downloads: 109 Uploads: 2	Disclaimer!: Not willing to start a legal discussion here, but as jurist I will tell you some things I know. Not for further discussion, but for simple information. The intellectual property is not protected by the contents of a stupid license you supposedly accept when you install the game, for the very simple reason that you had no chance to negotiate it with the company. That's what we call in Spain "general contracting conditions" or unnegotiated conditions. The contents of the intellectual property is defined by the law, and anything in the EULA that is against the law, or the laws that rule customers rights in the EU simply is considered as not put there, as a protection of teh customer. Period. Now, regarding the contents and extents of the intellectual property of the code by UBI, they could theoretically enforce a prohibition to MODIFY their stuff, using it as a base, but NOT to release for free stuff that is not based in their property. This, for example, includes any new graphic that you create from scratch and can be used to replace an original SH3 one. There could be a deep argumentation about the extents of what would and not be prohibited, but as I have already said, this is not something I would like to happen here. The official subsim.com position on this matter, else Neal says something different is: We will respect any decission that UBI makes regarding such questions. If UBI wants the modding of their products to stop in subsim.com forums, so be it. Subsim.com will not enter legal discussions or unfriendly relationship with gaming companies, unless something very serious would justify it. And the modding thing is right now not such a reason. Now please, let the thread continue but avoid legal discussions, and let those for lawyers in the courts. __________________ One day I will return to sea ...

01-28-10, 05:28 PM	#13
=FI=Ghost Gunner Join Date: May 2009 Location: Temerin, Serbia/Günzburg, Germany. Posts: 99 Downloads: 93 Uploads: 0	Let's just hope that it won't come to that. Even if it does, tough, we can always move to another forum __________________ Bury me at sea where no murdered ghosts can haunt me, if I rock upon the waves then no corpse can lay upon me.

01-29-10, 02:04 AM	#14
JScones Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 5,501 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	I'm tempted to do some more work on SH3Cmdr simply because I am not sensing a mass exodus to SH5 just yet.

01-30-10, 03:40 AM	#15
CptCrunch Seaman Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Wales Posts: 31 Downloads: 65 Uploads: 0	The Death of SH3? I agree that SH3 has a lot of life in it yet. Until SH5 comes out we really don't know if the mystical 'immersion factor' will be as good as the eye candy. We'll just have to see. I'm going to have to replace my PC to play SH5 - at the moment that might be a struggle. But the real killer is that I read somewhere else in the forum that Ubi will cease server support for SH3 sometime this year i.e. after SH5 comes out - So SH3 will not be killed but neither will it be encouraged to thrive