Suicides don't go to heaven but murder's do?

[Platapus]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/09/23/...ead/index.html

Dad admits killings to reporters, blames crime on 'spirit'

A Florida man admitted to reporters that he killed his wife and five "innocent" children, adding that he wants to be executed "right away" so he can be buried with them on Saturday.

Mesac Damas spoke with reporters in Haiti, saying a "spirit" drove him to kill his wife and children.







Mesac Damas, 32, said he wanted to take his own life, but did not have the courage to go through with it, "because if you kill yourself, you're not going to heaven."

...

But if you murder your wife and children you think you will go to heaven???


Jus not understandin this

[August]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Jus not understandin this

Count yourself lucky then Platapus. If you did you'd be as looney as he is...

[UnderseaLcpl]

This belief has its' roots in the Catholic Church of the Dark and Middle Ages, as I understand it. I do not claim to be an expert in current or historical Catholic belief but I believe that St. Thomas Aquinas had something to do with this sort of thing, and that the machinations of the church at that time turned suicide into a sort of business. Given that the man lives in Haiti, there is a strong possibility that he is Catholic.

This is only my opinion, based upon what I have heard, but the Catholic Church used to allow family members of the departed to purchase "indulgences" for the departed. This was a major factor when it came to suicides, as the suicidal generally did not confess their sins and affirm their faith in Jesus Christ before they died. Even if they did confess and repent their sins, they would have one sin they could repent for: suicide.
The burden of repentance would then fall to their family members. If they did not have any family members to inherit their property, it became the property of the Church as a form of indulgence, as any unwilled posessions were supposed to "go to God" (in the form of the church, of course).

Though that is only my opinion, I am inclined to believe that it is mostly based in fact because of the Catholic Church's longstanding tradition of taking the property of those who died and left no heirs. The Inquisition is a good example of this, as is the practice of avoiding marriage to up to 4th-degree cousins.

That last part bears a bit of explaining. During the dark and middle ages, overland transportation was extremely limited, and even coastal sea travel was hazardous. The length and hazards of long-distance travel at the time made choices amongst marriage partners difficult once the church imposed its' sanction. Couple that with the constant feuds between noble houses of differing (or even vaguely similar lineage), and the high infant mortality rate, and you have a foolproof recipe for a constant transfer of heirless property to the Church. Furthermore, consider the patriarchal lineage that most houses used, and the frequency of death amongst nobles (all men, amazingly) who went to battle.

Knowing what I do of you, Platapus, it should be no great logical leap for you to understand exactly how this man arrived in his situation, given the information I have provided. That however, is not to say that I am correct, only that my advice on the subject should be fairly clear.

In any case, I still stand as a proud member of the protestant sect. Surely our reinterpretation of the Cotholic beliefs and practices cannot be wrong, right?

[HunterICX]

Originally Posted by Platapus

But if you murder your wife and children you think you will go to heaven???


Jus not understandin this

He probally missed the part where you actually go to hell and get hot pokers up your arse till the end of times.

HunterICX

[Stealth Hunter]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

This belief has its' roots in the Catholic Church of the Dark and Middle Ages, as I understand it. I do not claim to be an expert in current or historical Catholic belief but I believe that St. Thomas Aquinas had something to do with this sort of thing, and that the machinations of the church at that time turned suicide into a sort of business. Given that the man lives in Haiti, there is a strong possibility that he is Catholic.

This is only my opinion, based upon what I have heard, but the Catholic Church used to allow family members of the departed to purchase "indulgences" for the departed. This was a major factor when it came to suicides, as the suicidal generally did not confess their sins and affirm their faith in Jesus Christ before they died. Even if they did confess and repent their sins, they would have one sin they could repent for: suicide.
The burden of repentance would then fall to their family members. If they did not have any family members to inherit their property, it became the property of the Church as a form of indulgence, as any unwilled posessions were supposed to "go to God" (in the form of the church, of course).

Though that is only my opinion, I am inclined to believe that it is mostly based in fact because of the Catholic Church's longstanding tradition of taking the property of those who died and left no heirs. The Inquisition is a good example of this, as is the practice of avoiding marriage to up to 4th-degree cousins.

That last part bears a bit of explaining. During the dark and middle ages, overland transportation was extremely limited, and even coastal sea travel was hazardous. The length and hazards of long-distance travel at the time made choices amongst marriage partners difficult once the church imposed its' sanction. Couple that with the constant feuds between noble houses of differing (or even vaguely similar lineage), and the high infant mortality rate, and you have a foolproof recipe for a constant transfer of heirless property to the Church. Furthermore, consider the patriarchal lineage that most houses used, and the frequency of death amongst nobles (all men, amazingly) who went to battle.

Knowing what I do of you, Platapus, it should be no great logical leap for you to understand exactly how this man arrived in his situation, given the information I have provided. That however, is not to say that I am correct, only that my advice on the subject should be fairly clear.

In any case, I still stand as a proud member of the protestant sect. Surely our reinterpretation of the Cotholic beliefs and practices cannot be wrong, right?

This. To add a few details, it wasn't originally a sin to commit suicide in the early Dark Ages. The serfs were promised all sorts of rewards in the after life, but they had to work hard. And they serfs, as we all know, worked for the nobles- which also consisted of clergymen for a long time (before there was a definitive split). Life basically sucked as a serf, and as time went on, they figured out "Why should we work our asses off here and now when we could just skip that by killing ourselves and getting the eternal rewards?".

So as suicides began becoming more and more common, the Catholic Church decreed it to be a sin- and that one would be sent straight to hell for wasting the lord's gift of life. They kept their workforce strong and were able to keep on making money. The nobles also convinced the clergy to work towards making it a sin as well, especially the Frankish ones.

[Reece]

You are right August, I'm a Christian but this guy's a total nut case, wouldn't want to be in his shoes on Judgment day!! You have to wonder what goes on in the minds of people like this!!

[Letum]

May he stay on death row just long enough to be cured of his suicidal tendencies.

[SteamWake]

Its Hati for cryin out loud.

[GoldenRivet]

I believe in a supreme being.

that said.

I think that a large part of the heaven and hell concept and most of the precepts of religion were created by powerful men who desired to exert control over the masses.

I also think that most religions have been perverted by mankind over the course of human existence.

I also think that religion is one of the chief causes for strife and war on earth.

i do believe there is an afterlife. as to what the after life entails - beats the crap outta me.

If you subscribe to the Christian school of though which is basically...

"God loves us and wants us to be happy... he loved us all so much that he sent down his only son to be murdered for our salvation."

that's pretty big... God must really love us if he would put his own son through a grueling, agonizing death right?

well, if God loves us that much it really seems like a waste to damn us to an eternity in hell fire for doing something like stealing, adultery, envy etc.

however i do believe that there are certain unforgivable offenses.

Murder is one of them.

I also believe that there are very specific circles of hell... each one growing more and more severe, relentless and vile than the last.

There is such a thing as spiritual law... and there is such a thing as spiritual justice.

the heaven or hell concept doesnt fly with me because God is infinitely more pure, loving, forgiving, just, and knowing than man....

... man has scales of punishment... so wouldnt God?

for example, if you are caught stealing someones big screen TV you're going to spend a couple of years in jail and probably some community service etc.

its not an instant death sentence.

the judge over the case doesnt decide between

no punishment or life in prison.

he has options and levels of punishment... as would you likley have in the afterlife.

im just sayin

[Castout]

I'm a Catholic myself.

I am a witness of Christ too . It was a long time ago about 17 years ago when God in His pity gave me a clear vision of Christ while I was fully awaken, well I did ask to be allowed to see the real face of Jesus. What I saw didn't match my idea of Jesus though. Though later I found out from the bible that confirmed what I was shown. I saw Christ as a 'person' whose face shone a very bright white light. The light was immense and that's an euphemism. A hundred sun would not even match the intensity of the light. The light was such that His entire figure was enveloped in the light which was coming out from His face. It was Christ. I didn't hear any words spoken though.
I don't care if anybody mock or ridicule me because I'm not making this up nor I was delusional. It wasn't satan either since I was only allowed to see what I saw after God literally gave me an out of this world love for Jesus.

In time I found out more about God well I don't know everything about God [obviously] but I'm fortunate enough to be given the knowledge of death, just last year actually. I know most people would think it's BS again but I don't care. Anyway I searched the bible for what was shown to me and has since written a simple document on death. If anybody is interested I could give you that document. The death that was shown to me doesn't actually conform to the mainstream modern Christian belief. It is however written clearly in the bible and the muslim qur'an(to my surprise, thanks to a muslim who read what I wrote in one of the Christian forum and wrote back to me). Most Christian which I testified to would reject it and a lot would simply ignore it. I just want to say treasure your life . What is given to each man is TIME and only TIME. Death will be the last enemy of Christ to be defeated.

Because Jesus said whatever told to you in a whisper shout it out from the rooftop!

[Morts]

Originally Posted by Castout

because I'm not making this up nor I was delusional.

Riiight

[clive bradbury]

Originally Posted by HunterICX

He probally missed the part where you actually go to hell and get hot pokers up your arse till the end of times.

HunterICX

...better than living in Haiti...

[Stealth Hunter]

Originally Posted by Castout

I'm a Catholic myself.

I am a witness of Christ too . It was a long time ago about 17 years ago when God in His pity gave me a clear vision of Christ while I was fully awaken, well I did ask to be allowed to see the real face of Jesus. What I saw didn't match my idea of Jesus though. Though later I found out from the bible that confirmed what I was shown. I saw Christ as a 'person' whose face shone a very bright white light. The light was immense and that's an euphemism. A hundred sun would not even match the intensity of the light. The light was such that His entire figure was enveloped in the light which was coming out from His face. It was Christ. I didn't hear any words spoken though.
I don't care if anybody mock or ridicule me because I'm not making this up nor I was delusional. It wasn't satan either since I was only allowed to see what I saw after God literally gave me an out of this world love for Jesus.

In time I found out more about God well I don't know everything about God [obviously] but I'm fortunate enough to be given the knowledge of death, just last year actually. I know most people would think it's BS again but I don't care. Anyway I searched the bible for what was shown to me and has since written a simple document on death. If anybody is interested I could give you that document. The death that was shown to me doesn't actually conform to the mainstream modern Christian belief. It is however written clearly in the bible and the muslim qur'an(to my surprise, thanks to a muslim who read what I wrote in one of the Christian forum and wrote back to me). Most Christian which I testified to would reject it and a lot would simply ignore it. I just want to say treasure your life . What is given to each man is TIME and only TIME. Death will be the last enemy of Christ to be defeated.

Because Jesus said whatever told to you in a whisper shout it out from the rooftop!

[Dowly]

How the hell did I miss this one!

[Castout]

Originally Posted by Morts

Riiight

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

Hmmm I can assure you that I would even pass a lie detector if tested on this matter. So it's either I'm a complete delusional or HONEST. There's a saying or idiom in science or investgation that most people seem to have forgotten: When you have eliminated the impossible(those that have proved wrong), whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

So before you dismiss something without basis and only under assumptions you're not being logical at all.
Whatever, the most important thing is I have testified whether people accept it is their own business. I'm not looking for recognition or anything like that at all. In fact Had I wanted recognition I would probably have preferred not to testify at all.

And who the hell define what is real or not? Mass or the majority of people's experience?
That wouldn't be wise wouldn't it?
Couple centuries ago most people thought the world was flat. So do you think that the world is flat was a reality even then when most people believe it?
Pushed further back in time most people thought the sun was traveling in the sky or that the earth was the center of the universe and every astronomical object revolves around it. Does majority belief make them a reality even then?
So what is reality?

If you define reality as things perceived by you alone(or even by your own family or by your own tribe, etc) then it's very subjective isn't it but if you define it as the majority of people belief and or perception then it can be misleading. No one man knows everything in an objective way. We each one of us is conditioned by our personal and subjective experience such that no man can claim to have known reality at all unless that man claims to have known everything! We CERTAINLY can't tell what is real or not for sure with respect to what other people are experiencing without a thorough investigation and even investigation could fail to reveal the truth behind.

Sometime ago atom was defined as the smallest particle of a mass then now we have identified sub atomic particles.
I'm saying that even our knowledge(science) things that we have proved by the mantra of logical discernment is DYNAMIC and CHANGING due to the fact that we are GROWING in knowledge. So today knowledge could be a past misconception tomorrow and vice versa.

I read a sad story in the newspaper sometime ago about a child or toddler being raised by cats. She behaved just like cats. So to her reality she was a cat. Does that make it true?