ffs

[Steel_Tomb]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe...ef=mpstoryview

what kind of crap is this? I'm sorry but get real, its a weapon of war. Modern CBU's like the SFW are designed to self detonate before hitting the ground, are they to be banned too? They are taking away a really vital piece of equipment here! How else are you supposed to stop whole tank collumns now? a few mavericks won't make much of a dent compared to a few Mk-20's.

I feel for civ's that are injured by unexploded munitions, but they can't just outrightly ban an entire class of weapons its ludicrous.

[Platapus]

I believe this treaty is more aimed at eliminating the type of CBU that leaves either intentional or unintentional unexploded bomblets that can and do harm civilians well after the battle.

I remember doing CBU testing a few hundred years ago, the dud rate was rather high (lowest bidder).

Since the environment of war is moving closer to more urban and populated areas, the advantages of CBU's may no longer be greater than the disadvantages.

Whether this ban will be effective is unknown. Weaponeering countries are very good at working around or ignoring such agreements.

The good news is that warfare involving "whole tank columns" will be less likely as the fabric of war changes.

[Steel_Tomb]

Older CBU designed to take out infantry can go, I have no problem with that. Its the anti-armour varients like the Mk-20 Rockeye and the CBU-87 for lightly armoured targets that need to stay with us. I agree with the case that conflicts are becoming more centralised around urban areas, but the possibility for the need to take out multiple targets with one bomb is still pretty essential. There are some things that you simply can not just "get rid" of, and cluster munitions are one of them. Platforms like the A-10 rely heavily on CBU's to take out ground targets, to deny a mud moving aircraft these weapons would reduce its sting significantly. Less targets destroyed also means more passes over the target, increasing the chances of loosing airframes... not a good thing in any situation!

Perhaps research needs to be made into creating better fuses to reduce the chance of unexploded munitions, but the fact remains... its simply unreasonable to expect such a necessary and effective weapon to be banned. War is a sad and bloody thing, its a tragic fact that you will get civillian casulties in any conflict. It doesn't make it right, but its what happens in war.

[August]

Originally Posted by Platapus

The good news is that warfare involving "whole tank columns" will be less likely as the fabric of war changes.

I agree with the rest of what you said but what is more or less likely in future wars is pure speculation.

[baggygreen]

Originally Posted by August

I agree with the rest of what you said but what is more or less likely in future wars is pure speculation.

Personally i think the 'old style' of warfare is a better one in the sense that the enemy is clearly defined and so it is much easier to know your targets, and ultimately it's easier to win (or lose) than the current type where we're fighting insurgents who blend so nicely to the civvy population

[mrbeast]

The Israelis dropped cluster bombs all over Southern Lebanon a couple of years ago about a million bomblets are still unexploded and littering the countryside.

[August]

Originally Posted by mrbeast

The Israelis dropped cluster bombs all over Southern Lebanon a couple of years ago about a million bomblets are still unexploded and littering the countryside.

Obviously that number is an exaggeration.

[mrbeast]

770 cluster-bomb sites have now been identified. And the current U.N. estimate is that Israel dropped between 2 million and 3 million bomblets on Lebanon, of which up to a million have yet to explode. In fact, it is estimated that there are more unexploded bomblets in southern Lebanon than there are people. They lurk in tobacco fields, olive groves, on rooftops, in farms, mixed in with rubble. They are injuring two or three people every day, according to the United Nations, and have killed 20 people since the cease-fire in August.
"What we did was insane and monstrous," one Israeli commander admitted to the newspaper Haaretz. "We covered entire towns in cluster bombs."

http://www.international.ucla.edu/ar...parentid=56096

Don't now how accurate the figures are either way theres a hell of a lot of unexploded ordnance lying about in Lebanon

[richardphat]

War from nowadays.............No need to do alot just press the button and a missile blow in a spot!............Get in a jet and drop bomb..............Soldier noways dont even need to see the victim to kill............
I said its the right thing to do those unexploded cluster are very dangerous.
Its true that those thing are very effective in war but still i felt they should find something else to use!

[RickC Sniper]

Originally Posted by richardphat

War from nowadays.............No need to do alot just press the button and a missile blow in a spot!............Get in a jet and drop bomb.

War still requires, and will continue to require boots on the ground to bring it to a conclusion.

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by richardphat

War from nowadays.............No need to do alot just press the button and a missile blow in a spot!............Get in a jet and drop bomb..............Soldier noways dont even need to see the victim to kill............

You say that with the confidence of someone who has first-hand experience in this sort of button-pressing war :hmm:


A lot of the high-tech illusions aren't just on one side I think. I think if you put yourself in the place of a modern pilot or even intelligence specialist, you'll see that their work is no button-fest but every bit as demanding, if not more demanding, than the "close" warfare of the past.

That said, my stance on cluster bombs is that they're nothing if not weapons of mass destruction. Their use absolutely needs to be regulated tightly if it can't be eliminated. The way they've been used in recent conflicts is unacceptable.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Mk-20 is no longer in the US inventory anymore, IIRC. CBU-89s and WCMD/GPS guided variant of that is still there though. I think those are the only ones?

Edit: Oh, and JSOW-A is cluster.

PD

[MothBalls]

They should be banned. The can inflict injuries decades after they were deployed and that's just not acceptable.

Actually any bomb is not acceptable, but we don't live in a perfect world. If we did, we wouldn't have or need any bombs at all.

[Ducimus]

I think a couple of civil war generals said it best:

- " War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it;"
- "It is well that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it."

[PeriscopeDepth]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

- " War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it;"

Agreed.

"Yay! We banned cluster bombs! Well, at least everybody did but the nations who are liable to actually use them."

What about nuclear weapons? Naval mines? DU rounds?

Anywhere you are dumping ordinance that civillians may be, they will die. War will never be "more civil".

PD