Ideal range for convoy torpedo attack in GWX v.1.03

Hello all Kaleuns ,

This is perhaps the most complicated question in GWX gameplay.What is going to be the ideal range for convoy torpedo attack in GWX?

Let's mention all aspects you have to deal with when attacking large convoys in GWX:

1.Favourable attack position.That usually means that your boat is traversing the route of convoy.The biggest problem here is that it's extremely difficult to pick up traversing position at the "theoretically" ideal range for torpedo attack-800 or 1000 meters.Convoy escorts do use very sophisticated escorting tactics in GWX and it's nearly impossible to turn on "Ahead Full" on "Rig for Silent Running" without chance of being compromised.Fast propulsation is cruicially needed on such short distances while attacking convoys,as if your and convoys angle speed is big enough - the convoy will eventually escape,at least you will not be able to turn into zero gyro angles for torpedo launches.

2.Stealth.It's quite difficult to perform approach maneuvering and stay stealthy being at short distance to the convoy-your periscope maybe spotted,or your U-Boat maybe picked up on sonar by destroyers.

3.Ability to engage multiple targets rapidly.Well,everything here still depends on the angle speed,being at short range you will not be able to turn into zero gyro angles,running at "Rig for Silent" and maintaining 2 knot speed.Speed difference is too big - 2 knots for your U-Boat,and 5-7 knots for the convoy.So,practically you can launch torpedoes upon one ship only being at such short range-ships will start zig zagging after the first torpedo hit and you cannot afford yourself enough speed to start attacking other ships due to stealth requirements.

Of course,you can have absolutely ideal conditions for convoy attack in GWX - ideal traversing approach at 800 meters from convoy,night without moonlight,escorts far away etc. - but this is more exception,than a rule.

According to my personal observations,best results are achieved firing at greater ranges.For example,yesterday I caught up the Large Convoy South East of Rockall Bank.There was daytime - 1-00 PM,little stormy sea,bright sunshine and perfect visibility.I was approaching the convoy at ideal traverse (90 degrees) but distance to more or less valuable ships was about 3 - 4 km.I turned on "Rig For Silent Running",set on "Full Speed" for TI-G7A torpedoes in my Type IXB U-123 and maneuvered towards a group of Large Merchants,those were ideally positioned for my attack.I engaged two of them from 3 kilometers,third was fired upon being 4 km from my position.And you know what?Those three Large Merchants were sunk during 4 minutes as they were hit almost simultaneously (I am playing with fast reload ) and I got 35 000 tonnage within those 4 minutes.Moreover,I started crash diving after "Torpedo Impact" reports still running on silent mode,and never was picked up on sonar by destroyers.I dived down to 220 meters and gradually escaped.

Generally speaking,I think that the same convoy can be shadowed and attacked numerous times if you use a Type IX boat in GWX.So I would like to ask everybody,when is "The Alarm" is actually cancelled within a convoy after first attack?I mean when do all ships start returning into formation?

I always use only gas/steam powered TI-G7A torpedoes.I think only those high speed fishes allow you to make long range marksmanship in GWX.And,as I said before,all convoy attacks are most successfull at over 2000 meters distances as you can match and maintain all necessary criterias for a successfull attack:good angle speed for hitting multiple targets,keeping "Silent Running" for your U-Boat stealth,having enough gap between you and destroyers for safe escape.

So,Kaleuns,I would like to ask you all,what do you do if you spot a large convoy?Wait for the most "theoretically" favourable conditions or engage at a chance,if conditions are more or less favourable.

I will be glad to read all your comments and answers.

Good Hunting to all Kriegsmarine Grey Wolves

[KeptinCranky]

Don't underestimate the TII in GWX with 3km range and it not leaving a bubble trail you can get off a few shots at several ships from outside the convoy and they wont get alerted until the first one goes off, by then it will be too late for the other targets

by the time the TIII becomes available with 5km range its time to leave those TIs at home or maybe take only 1 or 2 for juicy targets at long range at night

concerning accuracy over range, yes the TI is better but when you have a good angle on the convoy, TIIs and TIIIs will do the trick as well, just be ready to fire a little earlier or to have your boat already turned a few degrees to get that zero gyro-angle necessary for good marksmanship.

as for your crash-diving when the first torpedoe hits, that's not something I'd recommend unless your still near your firing point or close to an escort, otherwise it might be smarter to just slowly go deeper say at 3 or 4 knts or even 2 for total silence as soon as your last fish has left the tubes, I find that being farther away from your firing point when the escort gets there and him having no idea where you went, even if you're only at 80 meters down is better than making a lot of noise while getting deeper because they will hear you going at flank speed and know your general heading from the firing point and thus be a lot closer to your sub when you do go silent.
I've noticed that keeping steely-calm and not making noise turns out to work better than following your instinct to get the hell out of dodge. But then not every situation is the same

btw in 39 and 40 (before radar) it pays to try a night-surface attack with decks awash even in GWX

[Brag]

I wait for the convoy to come to me. I like my first target to be at 1500-2500 meters so by the time I have fired 3-4 torpedoes they all explode close together. That's when I go flank , do the wiggle waggle, get as far away from datum point and as deep as possible and go silent.

I use exclusevely electric torps and unless I have a perfect AOB, I shoot under the ship for magnetic detonation.

Kaleuns,do those notorious tail bubbles of TI-G7A fish affect GWX ships/escorts AI behaviour in any way?As fas as I see,zig zagging starts only if you are:spotted/picked up on sonar by escorts/torpedo impacts any ship within a convoy.

[Avatar]

The most attacks I've made with a Type VII on one perticular convoy is 3. And that was because the third attack was going for one Large Cargo. I fired all forward torpedos each time, and on one occasion, I was able to use my stern torpedo for a finishing shot. Then I let the convoy slip by, surfaced, the did the end-around.

The best advice on an end-around is stay way abreast the escort sceen, way off so you can only see their masts.(I still use 6km visibility)

There really is no set outline for attack, for me. It evolves as more data is collected. But basically, I like to attack abeam, firing at furthest ships first(Range almost 2000m), then the closest(Range about 800-1000m). Get the best solution for the furthest ship, the second one is closer and has a better chance to hit than the furthest one. You'll be surprised at escort behavior when the furthest torpedo hits. They seem to be attracted to that one hit and forget about the rest, unless youre making all kinds of noise or you are counter-detected.

Concerning tail-bubbles: The above attack tactics worked in early morning hours with the steam powered torpedo. I was never pinged and no DD's came my way, even though I was running at ahead 1/3. However, once I shot at a DD that was listening for me and was going at about 6 kts. It was a perfect set-up, an almost 90degree angle, maybe 1200m. But it was in broad daylight with about sea level 2. He saw the bubbles and evaded my torpedo. This should be a lesson: Never fire at the midships of a DD in good sea states. Always use the fastest torpedo speed and aim well ahead, perhaps even at the anchor. Anyway, when the DD evaded, he came my direction but was off about a 45 degree track. Luckily, I was able to slink away, counting my blessings. Lesson learned!

edit: this is worth reading
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=115981

[KeptinCranky]

Yep bubble trails wake em up real quick in broad daylight

example: during the Norway campaign there's a stationary British taskforce in a fjord, 3 DDs a Fiji CL and 3 juicy troop transports, I'd used my electrics to take out the DDs they never knew what hit them, so there was the Fiji that moved a bit but stopped again after all the Escorts went kerblooie, I fired 2 steamers at the Fiji, the weather was flat calm and broad daylight for this (I wasn't going to wait for the luftwaffe to steal my credit) It spots my eels I guess about 750 meters out, it immediately steps on the throttle, goes to 12 knots and the fish pass well astern

so yes they do notice and the lighter, more turnable ships ususally manage to evade

[Canovaro]

I get the impression that warships notice the bubbles and merchants don't but I could be wrong.

I also get the impression that often the bubble trail is only noticed after impact. Very often I attacked with electrics a short range and silently slipped away without ever being pinged.

I recommend using electrics against convoys and then slip away the slow and silent way.

[Jimbuna]

Get up as close as you are able without giving away your position.

Steam torpedoes obviously leave a (bubble wake) so only use these for merchantmen because they can't manouvre as easily as a warship.

Always have an electric in the aft tube for any warship attempting to run you down (especially those fitted with hedgehog)

Kaleuns,I might frustrate you,but it seems that conning tower and periscope of your U-Boat are the actual things compromising you while targeting close in wavy sea at periscope depth,and not those mystic bubble trails of T-I G7A fish.

Electric fishes do lack damn lots of acceleration-14 knots at muzzle,and that causes great possibilities for evading them.My personal results with electrics are always much worse than using steam powered torpedoes.

[MarkShot]

What a wonderful thread ... this is precisely the problem I have been struggling with. Plotting a convoy intercept and getting inside or close to a convoy is not a problem, but those escorts have been forcing me down before getting a shot off!!! (as they should, by the way)

Is it possible to do scope observations before shooting or is it just position on sound bearing and then one observation and shoot?

I already know to be slow (1KTS) when going up scope. Also, I usually have the boat at 14-15 meters so it is at deep as possible when the scope itself breaks the water to avoid the possibility of the conning tower broaching.

As the original poster says, one cannot do anything but crawl around a convoy.

So, does anyone have any idea at what range non-alerted escorts can pick a U-boat at various speeds? Can I do 4tks at 5km, 10km, or 15km range?

The other thing I keep wondering about is does going deep play any role in the approach profile? In AOD, down at 230-240M the escorts can pass really close and not pick you up as you come in under the screen or they sweep over you. In SH1, there was similar tactics of coming below the thermal layer. Does depth play any role in the attack approach here? Beside their sensors will being deep avoid cavitation affects in SH3?

Thanks.

MarkShot,running on 2 knots is the only option of putting yourself to favourable attack position.Yes,you can rise periscope and observe.Your attack will be ruined immediately,if you turn on full ahead speed,no matter what depth is.Good Hunting!

[MarkShot]

Assuming one is trying to come in close for a shot like inside the convoy and is doing the silent/1kts thing, what is a safe depth to avoid conn/keel collisions. I am thinking somewhere between 40-50M?

Thanks.

[bigboywooly]

I have always found you get detected less at PD than deep
My observations
I usually raise a scope - sight a target and lower again
Make the solution raise then los
Another spread using the same technique - if possible - then dive deep
3\4 kts then down to 2 as I gain some depth

For those using the stealth meter remember the colour changes are only an indication that you COULD be heard at those speeds\depth\noise rather than you ARE detected
A lot of ppl make the mistake that when the stealth meter turns red you are already discovered and go flank etc to escape
All you are doing is ringing the dinner bell

I have in GWX been on the suface in the middle of a convoy in heavy fog
Running down the lanes while reloading torps from externals
Not realistic I know and ended with me being rammed by a DD that in all honesty I dont think knew I was there
The other escorts were way behind the convoy dropping DC at the time on nothing
Tis what happens when you get greedy
I had already sunk 3 tankers and a cargo from the convoy
Should have just slipped away but meh
Death or glory

Longer ranges (2000m-3000m) offer more options for targeting multiple ships.The closer you are,the more difficult targeting will be in reason of U-Boat's crawling 2 knot speed,compared to convoy's 5 or even 7 knots.If you speed up-you are compromised.