Muslim uproar - (Merged)

[Skybird]

Party time!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5347876.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5348436.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/pope/story/0,,1873167,00.html
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe...lam/index.html
http://www.welt.de/data/2006/09/15/1037631.html
http://www.faz.net/s/Rub28FC768942F3...~Scontent.html

So far, minor or no coverage in those US and French medias that I scan (certainly not all, and Herald Tribune link currently broken). However, Al Jazeera surprisingly is silent about it, too (they have a current headline of Egypt groups wanting to quit treaties with Israel, calling the end of peace treaties "real democracy" for the ME).

Threats from officials of the Turkish government. A parliamentarian resolution from Pakistan. Intimidation from the Egypt Muslim Brotherhood, and the even more "radical" workers party. Self-deception and angry balking from the central commitee of muslims in Germany. Angry comments by the OIC. Mass protests in Kashmir. Rallies along africa'S North, protests in the Me countries, demonstrations in Asian places as well. And more angry official comments from Quatar, India, Indonesia, Algeria...

Of course, it all has been peace and love and truth in Islam history, whereas christianity again is reminded that the crusades were unjustified aggression (against Isamic attack and invasion, which usually is not told), and still live until today, and Islam has been it'S poor, poor victim, and that there are so many lies being told about Islam today, and that Muslims demand this, and demand that, and apologies needed, ans serious concerns, and blablablabla and lots of gobbelgobbelgobbel.

This is the paragraph in original that spiked current emotions. It holds nothing nothing nothing anyone needs to apologize for, and the pope made it clear that he is quoting already existant words anyway.

Originally Posted by German original

In der von Professor Khoury herausgegebenen siebten Gesprächsrunde kommt der Kaiser auf das Thema des Djihad (heiliger Krieg) zu sprechen. Der Kaiser wußte sicher, daß in Sure 2, 256 steht: Kein Zwang in Glaubenssachen – es ist eine der frühen Suren aus der Zeit, in der Mohammed selbst noch machtlos und bedroht war. Aber der Kaiser kannte natürlich auch die im Koran niedergelegten – später entstandenen – Bestimmungen über den heiligen Krieg. Ohne sich auf Einzelheiten wie die unterschiedliche Behandlung von „Schriftbesitzern“ und „Ungläubigen“ einzulassen, wendet er sich in erstaunlich schroffer Form ganz einfach mit der zentralen Frage nach dem Verhältnis von Religion und Gewalt überhaupt an seinen Gesprächspartner. Er sagt: „Zeig mir doch, was Mohammed Neues gebracht hat und da wirst du nur Schlechtes und Inhumanes finden wie dies, daß er vorgeschrieben hat, den Glauben, den er predigte, durch das Schwert zu verbreiten“. Der Kaiser begründet dann eingehend, warum Glaubensverbreitung durch Gewalt widersinnig ist. Sie steht im Widerspruch zum Wesen Gottes und zum Wesen der Seele. „Gott hat kein Gefallen am Blut, und nicht vernunftgemäß zu handeln, ist dem Wesen Gottes zuwider. Der Glaube ist Frucht der Seele, nicht des Körpers. Wer also jemanden zum Glauben führen will, braucht die Fähigkeit zur guten Rede und ein rechtes Denken, nicht aber Gewalt und Drohung . . . Um eine vernünftige Seele zu überzeugen, braucht man nicht seinen Arm, nicht Schlagwerkzeuge noch sonst eines der Mittel, durch die man jemanden mit dem Tod bedrohen kann “.

Originally Posted by English translation

In the seventh conversation (*4V8,>4H - controversy) edited by Professor Khoury, the emperor touches on the theme of the holy war. The emperor must have known that surah 2, 256 reads: "There is no compulsion in religion". According to the experts, this is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Qur'an, concerning holy war. Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels", he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached". The emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God", he says, "is not pleased by blood - and not acting reasonably (F×< 8`(T) is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death...".

the complete speech in original German words can be found here:
http://www.faz.net/s/RubBF7CD2794CEC...~Scontent.html

The English translation here:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/be...nsburg_en.html

I hope no apology takes place (for what?) Let Islam drown in hysteria again for all world to see it's lying face and selfish, sly self-deception. Time to stop being obedient servants for the interests of Islam. I need a bucket nearby, just in case I can't hold it.

Maybe we should have a yearly championship for Muslim performances of self-deception and mass-hysteria, we could hold it at Monte Carlo and call this festivity a "Hysterial", and award the three highest scoring contributions some kind of an award to show them how much we care and really take them seriously. Little marcipane figures of Muhammad, or a golden box with a set of beer mats with ol' boy's face.

[The Avon Lady]

Hey now, if the Pope doesn't retract his accusations of Islam promoting violence, Muslims around the world might respond violently! :hmm:

And that would be the Pope's fault!

[Immacolata]

Excitable lot, aren't they?

WE had it last time. Torching of our embassy in Damascus, riots in the streets of Indonesia. At least the saudis merely boycotted danish dairy products for some months. That was the closest thing to a rational reaction I saw from that conflict.

[Skybird]

Good man, that is. and I knew it! I knew that he would not turn out to be the tough hardliner many feared, he was called the "Panzer-Kardinal" over here. His faces change with the official positions he holds, and pope is a different job than being boss of the congregation. In a long TV-interview with German TV two or three weeks ago he chuckled when being confronted with a remark that he had been expected to be like this, ,or like that, saying that people have divided him into so many sub-personalities that he cannot count his many parts anymore, something like this he said. but he was always one and the same man, he said, just doing different jobs that came with different responsebilities. From what i have red from his writings, he has a laser-sharp mind. I can only recommend to read some of his many stuff, it goes both to the heart and the intellect and shows his fundament in greek philosophy. Now, that is a pope with whom I can deal, for a change. His predecessor I found disgusting.

[Onkel Neal]

Muslim fury at pope jihad comments
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/15/pope.islam/index.html

We never hear "Muslims fury at terrorists using their religion as basis for murder and mayhem"

[Immacolata]

Perhaps because they aren't spoon fed gov't propaganda about evil america. Im pretty sure half of this is due to selective information propagation. The other is becacuse they have no democracy. I wonder what it is that makes it so hard for Middle eastern countries to have a democratic gov't and voting system.

[Skybird]

I need to mark this day in my calender - Neal has made a contribution in an Islam-related-thread. Nice party last night, Neal? How many drinks?

BTW, I had already included your link in my list of links!

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Immacolata

Perhaps because they aren't spoon fed gov't propaganda about evil america. Im pretty sure half of this is due to selective information propagation. The other is becacuse they have no democracy. I wonder what it is that makes it so hard for Middle eastern countries to have a democratic gov't and voting system.

Quran. Hadith. Sharia. Muhammad. Absence of democarcy and market economy is not root of their problems, but a symptom of their problems. That's why "bringing them democracy" fails.

[The Avon Lady]

Turkey demands an apology.

Pakistan, too.

So does this animal.

BTW, for those who have appreciated her endeavors, Oriana Fallaci has passed away. RIP.

[Immacolata]

No, that is so easy. Just blame people's religion and you are free to ignore anything. Follow the money instead. Who gains by this?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Immacolata

No, that is so easy. Just blame people's religion and you are free to ignore anything. Follow the money instead. Who gains by this?

For me it is not even a religion, but a political agenda, aiming at totalitarian control of society, and subjugating societies that are not already part of it by force, violance, war, lies, bribing, deception, infiltration, colonization - whatever it takes. That ruthless Western economists and plutocratic elites and family clans like the Bushs (but also so many others!) make profit by doing opportunistic business with hostile factions does not change the fundemantal queerness in Islamic "thoelogy", it's lack of self-testing and self-analysis, self-reflecting and uncensored theollogical research on the matter of Islam. In Quran school, "studying the Quran/Islam" means effectively only this: learning it word by word (the word quran has a linguistcal root leading to a translated meaning of "recitation"), copying the teachers comments uncritically, not raising questions about it. Like I just wrote yesterday: not asking "is the quran right?" but "Why is it that the quran is always right?"

So, you can rightfully criticise both Islam and western plutocratic structures (what I do, btw.), but do not lead back one problem to the other. You are dealing with two independant problems, not one that is also causing the other. The problem with Islam is very much the religion and teaching itself, the content, the message, the ideology; the demand and self-perception of being for the best of all mankind, so that it is even in mankind's interest to be subjugated by Islam. that's why it sees no harm in using force against infidels. We infidels must be forced into our luck, you see. It does not compare to any other religion.

[STEED]

News of the World, headline

Former Hitler youth member bites back.

I bet they wished they ran that one.

[monkee]

I've lived 12 years as christian in Islamic country. All muslims I knew were against fundamentalism. I don't have problems with their theology. IMO any theology can/will be abused.

[Oberon]

Hmmm, better let Bruno Platter know that he'd better start arming his recruits...we're marching against Islam!!

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by monkee

I've lived 12 years as christian in Islamic country. All muslims I knew were against fundamentalism. I don't have problems with their theology. IMO any theology can/will be abused.

Define difference between "Islam" and "fundamentalism".