EU disconnects even more from reality

[Skybird]

People are turning away from the EU, due to its dubious nature, political conspiracy against the people and dictatorial trend. Solution? See here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...tic-surge.html

That's what the media and various ministries in the GDR and USSR have done, too.

What'S especially nerve-wrecking is the naturalness by which it is implied in intention as well as in quoted words by speakers that it is unimaginable that people turn away due to other reasons than being "misinformed", and the naturalness by which it is implied and expressed in straight words that the great success and wonderful nature of the EU is beyond doubt and cannot be questioned at all.

Let's force people to see the truth! Those who don't, obviously are mentally ill or have the most evil intentions.

Disloyal peasants, beware - the EU will teach ya! And if we cannot get you, then we get your chidklren - whom you will soon be forced to hand over to state'S care from the youngest of ages on so that they can be drilled according to EU doctrine from the first birthday on!

That we have had before, too. Again, in states like the GDR, USSR, Mao's China, and so on. The mothers meanwhile produced tax incomes for the state by drudging in the factories.

Hail to Big Brother, praise the EU!

P.S. Mind you, after having criminalised criticism of religion, namely Islam, by labellling it as equal to "hate crime" and discrimination for which under EU law you now can get punished, there is a strong initiative amongst EU autocrats who try since three years or so to criminalise criticism of the EU, too. That movement has agrowing support in the EU parliament and observers say it is only a question of time until the EU parliament, in an attempt to "aristocratize" itself so to speak, will make a formal proposal to the Central Committee to get according actions started to make this mandatory law in membership states. Some even want to prosecute criticism of the EU in non-member-states and dream of legal cooperation treaties with non-EU states to assure this option.

You better voluntarily be in favour of the EU. Else you get made to be. Well, great dictatorships have set that precedent before.

P.S. Mind you, after having criminalised criticism of religion, namely Islam, by labellling it as equal to "hate crime" and discrimination for which under EU law you now can get punished

The mods have said I must refrain from my usual response to such obvious bullexcrement
So lets just say that the entirely ficticious legislation Skybird is writing about is simply a product of his imagination brought on due to his obsessive hatred of muslims and the EU.

[Jimbuna]

Some of us may not be in the EU for all that much longer (wishful thinking).

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

The mods have said I must refrain from my usual response to such obvious bullexcrement
So lets just say that the entirely ficticious legislation Skybird is writing about is simply a product of his imagination brought on due to his obsessive hatred of muslims and the EU.

Seems legit.

[Respenus]

Ah, my favourite EU commentator, Mr. Waterfield. I remember him when he attacked the European Food Safety Authority for its decision on bottled water and dehydration. For those of you who do not remember, the experts at EFSA decided that according to current legislation, bottled water cannot be say that it prevent dehydration due to a) different quantities of bottled water, b) differences in human physiology and c) different sources of dehydration. Think of the decision what you wish, I don't see this as another EU banana rules, which, again I must remind everyone, have long since been repealed and even when they were put into place, were more of a power politics thing than an actual technical element (the UK just lost preferential agreements for its favoured importers, so the law remained a sore thumb for a long period of time).

Doing a quick search through the more credible EU news sites, I was unable to find any comments on the "Political guidelines for the institutional information and communication campaign" at this time (although such news will probably surface in the next couple of days). I will return if any such news arises or the document is published.

Going to the argument itself, I can see both points of debate. Media publications, especially the British media (and well, all other populist media), severely misrepresent how the EU actually works, how decisions are made and what legislation is actually in place and most importantly, the legislation that can actually be put into place. The Lisbon 'dictate' (Hello Skybird!) actually went a long way in getting the Member States back into control and we see a constant push towards it as we move along, at least in the more sensitive areas. On the other hand, I do see where an official institution, rather than political groups/parties at European level, would act in defence of a particular policy and the conflict of interest this would raise.

I am all for representing the truth (as I do on these forums and those of you who know me, remember that I always present my opinions backed by facts) and I agree that there are many problems with the EU, but please, can we stop with the senseless attacks and outright lies and actually debate the EU like rational individuals?

[HundertzehnGustav]

if you do not like the EU, please write to your local poliitician to pressure him in represennting your opinion: germany should get the hell out of it.

no?

[mapuc]

I can't really say that I hate EU. It's more my government that are pulling us, the danish people deeper into EU and that's without having asked us the people.

There are parties and politician in my country that gladly would give away the danish sovereignty to EU.

But it's not every one of them that would do so and these are what we called EU critical politician.

I try to read some of the lovers of EU and what they have to say and I also try to read what the critics to EU have to say.

Markus

Ah, my favourite EU commentator, Mr. Waterfield.

Is that the "barmy brussels bureaurcrats reject known scientific fact" story which turned out to be "advertising that product with that slogan is not accurate"?
Its easy to say how crap the EU is, there is absolutely no need to invent stories or ficticious legislation.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by HundertzehnGustav

if you do not like the EU, please write to your local poliitician to pressure him in represennting your opinion: germany should get the hell out of it.

no?

You do not know Germany nor the pigs on its animal farms. and mind you, they explcilty avoid to let the people of European nations have a word on basic questions like introducing the Euro, changing home constitutions and signing the new EU treaty - have you forgotten that? We and many other nation's people got explicitly locked out.

Cameron wants to ask his people. At least that is what he says (I believe it when I see it). Look at the anger and annoyance amongst European autocrats he has caused? Asking the people on the EU? How can he dare that? The people? What has the people'S will to do with the EU? No, Britain should not ask its people. Like the people should not have gotten asked ion the EU constitution (and in fact were not asked, and the two countries where they asked nevertheless, the vote was repatred until one got the vote one wanted).

We have had this kind of democratic understanding in Europe, until just recently. In the states of the Warsaw Pact. In the German Democratic Republic (Ha! Its even in its name: democratic!). They all held elections. They all had parties. They all had parliaments. They all were democratic. Or so they said.

But okay, when there is a day I have nothing to do and ar e threatened to die of boredom, I can write some politician in the Bundestag a letter. That is one of those politicians then who just signed and accepted to betray the German constitution and the role it dictates for said parliament. German politicians are th European leaders in desiring self-empowerment on behalf of the EU, like the Brits are the European leaders in just wanting that not.

We are expected to just nod to what the great wise men dictate to us - not to have differing opinions. Where there is a risk that we would not nod it off, we do not get asked then - and where we demand to get asked, we get locked out by force. The whole EU is based on this principle.

We cannot ask politicians to give us back our freedom, even more when their career interests is against the peoples' interest. We must take it ourselves, which implies: against their will. Where we do not will to fight for our freedom and against them, we do not deserve freedom then. Freedom cannot be asked for, nor can it be given. It must be taken. The persons you want to write letters to, are not possibly helping to solve the problem. They are part of the problem, the system of power they benefit from and that fosters them is part of the problem, the way power as corrupted the mechanisms of power and has occupied legislation and moral interpretation is part of the problem. The institutions of the state are corrupted on behalf of the EU, from the bottom up to the Constitutional High Court.

They all are standing in the way. So what are people willing to do about this? Writing letters? I could as well turn into a church believer and pray to God that he changes the laws of physics due to my prayers.

[August]

This is what happens when a people disconnects from their government. Decades of saying that the government doesn't represent the people has made the people apathetic and politicians bold.

Where are the protests? Where are the demonstrations? Complaining about it to a bunch of foreigners on this forum isn't going to force the changes you seek.

Like a local pol of ours said recently: “I’m proud to be here with people who understand that it’s more than just sending an email to get you going. Every once and awhile you need to get out on the streets and get a little bloody when necessary.”

Now I didn't agree with his cause but you can't ignore his fervor.

[Hottentot]

Originally Posted by August

Where are the protests? Where are the demonstrations?

"Yeah, someone should really start one. I'd totally go there to speak up my mind!"

[HundertzehnGustav]

Thing is...
There is so much to take care of, and my day only has 24 hours and my pay is meager.
I am so busy doing my job and fixing the minefield that my private life is that i can not dedicate 4 hours a day on understanding how this EU thing works, and whom i should hang by his ba... Buttocks.
Dealing with the local politicians is what i manage at best, and even THEY write in a manner that i do need help understanding the letters.

[August]

If things are half as bad as Skybird claims I just don't see how you guys have a choice.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Its like a pyramid. the larger the base elements, the higher the higher ups are floating.
and man, are they floating! like balloons!
Its one of the reasons why I, for one am very EU critical.

but in this global world... how to do anything else than team up in order to survive? and the EU is , among others the effort to stand together in the competition for economic and military, financial , social (community) and intellectual assets.

small guy sees no option but to play that game, ignore the bad parts and hope for the best. While sometimes whishing it was 1995 again.

[Respenus]

@HundertzehnGustav

You are absolutely right in your assumption that in order to survive we need to work together, although precisely what form this takes is open up to debate, which I agree isn't done often enough. On this topic, I recommend work by Alan S. Milward, whose analysis of the reasons behind the creation of the European Coal and Steel Community, the first step toward the EU, points to the possibility to save the nation state in a completely new and hostile post WW2 environment.

I personally have to thank Skybird for introducing me to a more EU-critical stance. One doesn't have to reject it in order to question some elements and I dislike individuals on both sides of the debate that are completely inflexible and unwilling to see the other side of the coin. It is also true that the EU isn't debated enough, or more precisely, it is not presented in its true complexity. This will sound like elitist bull, but from my experience a lot of people change their opinion from a EU-rejection to EU-critical stance once you take the time and present and meat and the bones of how things are done in the EU, and not just the simplified, easy-to-digest morsels fed by the media. However, I also agree that this takes time and effort and most people will not do it. This is why, in my opinion, the EU is currently stuck between moving forward and lingering into obscurity. One part is the capabilities-expectations gap, another is the misunderstanding of the fundamental elements of EU policy and decision-making.

@August, things are bad in the EU right now, with unemployment and zero growth (outside Germany, Poland and some select few), but not with the EU as such, or that is what I would claim. The European Council (composed of Heads of State and Government) has taken on a leading role in the crisis solving, much to the detriment of the European Commission, which is supposed to represent the general interest of the EU and be the driving motor with its policy proposals. So in the middle of the crisis, we have minor institutional wrangling (although the president of the Commission has more or less accepted his role of subservience to the European Council) and the Parliament is being loud with its new found right to give assent on the new multiannual financial framework (consider it as the ultimate budgetary constraint for the next 7 years). Mix this with the crisis and the fact that the EU cannot do most if not all of the stuff the citizens want it to (like social security and rights) and that it depends on the Member States for the funding of its programmes, and you have a hell of time getting stuff done. This of course, reflect badly on the entire EU in the public, with the different relations and rules not being as clear on the first look.

So yeah, another fun day in EU-ville. Come join me for another exciting adventure