A system of revenge

[Skybird]

http://www.armycourtmartialdefense.i...y-manning.html

PFC Manning is currently being held in maximum custody. Since arriving at the Quantico Confinement Facility in July of 2010, he has been held under Prevention of Injury (POI) watch.

His cell is approximately six feet wide and twelve feet in length (= 1.80x3x60m).
(...)
PFC Manning is held in his cell for approximately 23 hours a day.

The guards are required to check on PFC Manning every five minutes by asking him if he is okay. PFC Manning is required to respond in some affirmative manner. At night, if the guards cannot see PFC Manning clearly, because he has a blanket over his head or is curled up towards the wall, they will wake him in order to ensure he is okay.

A prison should not be a luxury hotel, but this is not only hilarious, but is a way of mistreating somebody by a form of torture that tries to evade being labelled as torture.

You could as well put him into a coffin-sized box and put him on a drip to feed him, and lay a pipe for breathing air. Isn't it enough that he can breath, lives, and can move his fingers?

[August]

He should have thought of that before he betrayed his country.

[the_tyrant]

I suppose its progress?
back in the cold war didn't people who leak information to the KGB get executed?

[Skybird]

Thats says nothing, August. With that statement you can excuse abandoning any legal standards or basic principles of justice in Western traditions' understanding completely. You can even excuse electroshocks or stage-tribunals like the Volksgerichtshof with that.

Formally he has not been found guilty of any crime, his guilt has not been proven at court, or am I wrong? That means he must be assumed innocent, for the time being - a vital principle of all Wetsern legal systems that is. In dubio pro reo. The guilt must be proven, not the innocence.

And even if he is found guilty of a crime, this does not justify the legal system striking back at him by the means of psychic or physical torture. At least as long as the claims of America for what principles it stands still have any meaning.

Justice and law enforcement - are something totally different than revenge. Cruelty by the authorities - must and shall have zero space in any legal system worth that name.

He should have thought of that before he betrayed his country.

It could be said that he was serving his country, after all some of the cables just illustrate how much the politicians and military are betraying their country on a regular basis.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by the_tyrant

I suppose its progress?
back in the cold war didn't people who leak information to the KGB get executed?

I would prefer death to a life-long imprisonment under circumstances like these.

[danlisa]

Originally Posted by August

He should have thought of that before he betrayed his country.

Really, and I suppose loyalty to ones country is more important than exposing high level corruption, lies to the general populous and the general arrogance/ignorance of the US political system.

If you want to bury your head and pretend none of this happens, carry on. PFC Manning should be applauded for his stance and the 'Land of the Free' should practice what they seem intent on preaching.

Unfortunately, the US is allowed (in no small part by it's population) to say one thing and do another.

*Slow clap* @ the United States of America, land of justice and home of the free.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

It could be said that he was serving his country, after all some of the cables just illustrate how much the politicians and military are betraying their country on a regular basis.

That's a very good point you make. He didn't betray his country, he betrayed his government (and that's a good thing if you ask me).

Unlike in the case of Assange (who as a (foreign!) citizen not working for any government is IMO not obliged to not publish any information), I'm not entirely against prosecution though as he did steal information while serving in the military. In my book that would qualify as espionage, no matter how much I agree with him releasing everything.

But deliberately mistreating him does seem to be quite a bit over the top.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by danlisa

Really, and I suppose loyalty to ones country is more important than exposing high level corruption, lies to the general populous and the general arrogance/ignorance of the US political system.

If you want to bury your head and pretend none of this happens, carry on. PFC Manning should be applauded for his stance and the 'Land of the Free' should practice what they seem intent on preaching.

Unfortunately, the US is allowed (in no small part by it's population) to say one thing and do another.

*Slow clap* @ the United States of America, land of justice and home of the free.

Aye. Pretty much all discussion coming from the Americans here is how Manning should be punished for what he's done. Not about what the government did and how the government should be punished.

Danlisa is right here, you do seem like ostriches following the flock of the Master Ostrich, all burying your heads deep in the sand.

[Blood_splat]

I'm an American and I'm glad it happened. Too many Americans have blind love for our government and military. If you can't spend it, screw it, or eat it, most Americans don't want to be bothered. We fight bleed and die for our countries super rich and vote against our own interests.

[August]

Originally Posted by DarkFish

Danlisa is right here, you do seem like ostriches following the flock of the Master Ostrich, all burying your heads deep in the sand.

Gee thank you for that unsolicited opinion.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Thats says nothing, August. With that statement you can excuse abandoning any legal standards or basic principles of justice in Western traditions' understanding completely. You can even excuse electroshocks or stage-tribunals like the Volksgerichtshof with that.

Formally he has not been found guilty of any crime, his guilt has not been proven at court, or am I wrong? That means he must be assumed innocent, for the time being - a vital principle of all Wetsern legal systems that is. In dubio pro reo. The guilt must be proven, not the innocence.

And even if he is found guilty of a crime, this does not justify the legal system striking back at him by the means of psychic or physical torture. At least as long as the claims of America for what principles it stands still have any meaning.

Justice and law enforcement - are something totally different than revenge. Cruelty by the authorities - must and shall have zero space in any legal system worth that name.

First you're assuming any of these claims are true Skybird. Do you have any proof of this from a halfway neutral source or should we just take his lawyers claims as gospel?

Second, from the description his life in prison awaiting courts-martial is still far easier than the lives of his fellow soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq who he has put at increased risk by publishing their operational details for our enemies to read and learn from.

Third, TV time and regular showers do not compare to electro shocks or kangaroo courts and i'm kind of insulted that you'd actually try to extend my statement to include them. Why not just claim that any incarceration at all is a violation of his rights and let the little traitor go free right?

[August]

Originally Posted by Blood_splat

I'm an American and I'm glad it happened. Too many Americans have blind love for our government and military. If you can't spend it, screw it, or eat it, most Americans don't want to be bothered. We fight bleed and die for our countries super rich and vote against our own interests.

We? Where have you served?

[MaddogK]

Originally Posted by Blood_splat

I'm an American and I'm glad it happened. Too many Americans have blind love for our government and military. If you can't spend it, screw it, or eat it, most Americans don't want to be bothered. We fight bleed and die for our countries super rich and vote against our own interests.

I'm curious as to why you think betraying your oath (your sworn promise) to not divulge classified information entrusted to you is a good thing. The military doesn't allow loopholes in the rules to allow this because an individuals conscious demands he break his oath.

[danlisa]

Originally Posted by MaddogK

I'm curious as to why you think betraying your oath (your sworn promise) to not divulge classified information entrusted to you is a good thing.

Where it states "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic".

Or is there another Oath that supersedes that one?