Das Boot Mystique

[sharkbit]

This is just something I thought I'd share:

I've read about some of the reactions of U-boat veterans to Bucheim's "Das Boot". It seems a lot of them disagreed with the potrayal of them and the U-boat service. I've read that there were some supporters as well.

I just started Michael Gannon's "Operation Drumbeat". It details Reinhard Hardegen's part in the attacks against America following America's entry into the war with U-123.

Gannon interviewed Hardegen and other members of his crew for the book. Early in the book, he recounts when U-123 was kept down by escorts for 12 hours on a patrol prior to Operation Drumbeat.
I found these quotes from Gannon's interview with crewmen from U-123 very interesting:

Quoted from the book:

Hans Seigel:It wasn't at all like what people saw in Bucheim's movie, Das Boot.

Walter Lorenz: No, not at all. In the movie when the depth cahrges hit you see men falling all about. It was just not like that. Sure, your nerves jangled, but falling about on each other? No, no.

Seigel: When you heard the ASDIC, and when you heard the depth cahrges, you knew that you were still alive. But it's true, when the destroyer's propeller noises grew louder and closer, and when the pinging reverberated throughout the boat, and when you heard the click of the explosives reaching their depth, sure it rattled your nerves. But there was never any screams or shouts like in the film. It just didn't happen. It couldn't happen-they'd locate you immediately. If just one man shouted-

Richard Amstein: I don't think there was man on board who wasn't scared.

Walter Kaeding: The man who says he wasn't scared, he's a liar. The difference was that in a U-boat you couldn't show your fear. So we didn't. But in Bucheim's film Das Boot, where the men are so scared they go in their pants, not one of us had that happen, not one.

Karl Latislaus: Did you know that Bucheim also wrote a book? He is truly crazy. He made only one trip in a U-boat, as a photojournalist. How could he presume to write about U-boatmen? Some things are factual, but most are not. Before a mission we didn't drink that much or go around without our shirts-

Kaeding: We always knew where we stood. We understood from the beginning that we could be hit out there. But discussing that was taboo. Not in the family, not in the homeland, nowhere did we discuss it. We didn't even discuss with our shipmates.

Seigel: Every boat was different. The commander of every boat was different. And I believe that if we had a commander who was very tense, we wouldn't have been so calm either. But with Hardegen we had confidence that we would make it. And we were a well-experienced crew. You could trust your life to every single man.

I found that passage very interesting. And so far, the book has been an engrossing read.

[CaptainNemo12]

Ditto, been reading the book for a few weeks now, currently on the chapter about British war efforts in Bletchley Park. Also ordered Patterson's U-boat War Patrol, can't wait!

Great find!
Thanks for sharing.

Careful lest the Das Boot fans tar you as a heretic and run you out of town. Buchhiem's novel has achieved mythological status with many here and one should always be careful questioning dogma.

Never mind that it IS a novel and so is fiction, it stands as the standard of realism for the faithful regardless of any factual, doctrinal or technical errors that might be present. As such it is no better or worse than any number of submarine novels, just more famous and mostly thanks to Wolfgang Petersen's film adaptions. Just don't get caught saying so in public.

In some ways though it is probably more accurate than Herbert Werner's supposedly factual Iron Coffins, another untouchable U-Boat cult document riddled with all manner of errors and inconstancies and yet one that many hold as almost biblical in its content.

There is some truly outstanding historiography on the U-Boat war and the Battle of the Atlantic available but most cannot be bothered to look past these two works, Das Boot the movie and all manner of superficial television CGI extravaganzas about U-Boats sandwiched in between monster-truck marathons.

All Michael Gannon's books are worth a look, cast your research net a bit wider and outstanding new worlds await.

[Paul Riley]

Originally Posted by Randomizer

Careful lest the Das Boot fans tar you as a heretic and run you out of town. Buchhiem's novel has achieved mythological status with many here and one should always be careful questioning dogma.

Never mind that it IS a novel and so is fiction, it stands as the standard of realism for the faithful regardless of any factual, doctrinal or technical errors that might be present. As such it is no better or worse than any number of submarine novels, just more famous and mostly thanks to Wolfgang Petersen's film adaptions. Just don't get caught saying so in public.

In some ways though it is probably more accurate than Herbert Werner's supposedly factual Iron Coffins, another untouchable U-Boat cult document riddled with all manner of errors and inconstancies and yet one that many hold as almost biblical in its content.

There is some truly outstanding historiography on the U-Boat war and the Battle of the Atlantic available but most cannot be bothered to look past these two works, Das Boot the movie and all manner of superficial television CGI extravaganzas about U-Boats sandwiched in between monster-truck marathons.

All Michael Gannon's books are worth a look, cast your research net a bit wider and outstanding new worlds await.

I have Iron Coffins and thought it was a great read.As far as inaccuracies?,I wouldnt know,I wasnt alive in the 40s and never served on a UBoat,nonetheless the book was rivetting at times.

[Paul Riley]

Originally Posted by sharkbit

This is just something I thought I'd share:

I've read about some of the reactions of U-boat veterans to Bucheim's "Das Boot". It seems a lot of them disagreed with the potrayal of them and the U-boat service. I've read that there were some supporters as well.

I just started Michael Gannon's "Operation Drumbeat". It details Reinhard Hardegen's part in the attacks against America following America's entry into the war with U-123.

Gannon interviewed Hardegen and other members of his crew for the book. Early in the book, he recounts when U-123 was kept down by escorts for 12 hours on a patrol prior to Operation Drumbeat.
I found these quotes from Gannon's interview with crewmen from U-123 very interesting:

Quoted from the book:


I found that passage very interesting. And so far, the book has been an engrossing read.

Would this be the book you refer to?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Operation-Dr...9169462&sr=1-2

I have just ordered it,thanks to you
NOTE: There seems to be a likeness to the front cover and my sig pic,only I edited mine to make it appear to look older like a WWII photograph
Staggering how a lot of American ships continued to sail through areas clearly silhouetted against the coastline!

[Paul Riley]

The guy on the left looks almost like Paulssen (check the images in the book) mentioned in Iron Coffins,maybe it IS him? I think Paulssen was the current captain when Werner was assigned to his first UBoat

[sharkbit]

Careful lest the Das Boot fans tar you as a heretic and run you out of town. Buchhiem's novel has achieved mythological status with many here and one should always be careful questioning dogma.

That crossed my mind. I've seen that underrcurrent at times. That passage jumped out at me as I read and had to share. I've always told my son that the movie is pretty spiced up-which is fine. Just don't take everything you see in movies as fact.
I still like the movie and love the book but I take it for what it is-a work of fiction.

Originally Posted by Paul Riley

Would this be the book you refer to?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Operation-Dr...9169462&sr=1-2

I have just ordered it,thanks to you
NOTE: There seems to be a likeness to the front cover and my sig pic,only I edited mine to make it appear to look older like a WWII photograph
Staggering how a lot of American ships continued to sail through areas clearly silhouetted against the coastline!

That's the one. I'm on Chapter 4 and it is excellent.

Also ordered Patterson's U-boat War Patrol, can't wait!

Pretty good book. I read it a couple of years ago.

I just finished reading his "U-boats in the Mediterranean"

Meh-I was a little dissapointed. Seemed pretty dry to me. There were a few good eyewitness accounts but it was mostly "U-so and so entered the Med on this date and was sunk by HMS so and so and HMS so and so on XX/XX/XXXX."
It gave some good background though that I wasn't aware of.

I have Iron Coffins and thought it was a great read.As far as inaccuracies?,I wouldnt know,I wasnt alive in the 40s and never served on a UBoat,nonetheless the book was rivetting at times.

Good read as well, even withinaccuracies and made up stuff. I definitely wouldn't use it as a source for research.

[flag4]

HA!!

i am reading the same now. and Hardegen is just about nearing his American position for attack. have just been reading the american part about how innept and dismissive they where of what was coming - Incredible!!!!!

what a book. all that have'nt yet, MUST read it - cheap copies are a
available from amazon - mine was less than a £ i think!!

have also ordered: "Business in Great Waters: U-boat Wars, 1916-45 (Wordsworth Military Library)"
John Terraine; Paperback; £0.77

...want to get into the ww1 campaign!

[Paul Riley]

There's some fantastic books at Amazon,some truly rare and unique finds.
I worship Amazon!

[Paul Riley]

Originally Posted by Paul Riley

The guy on the left looks almost like Paulssen (check the images in the book) mentioned in Iron Coffins,maybe it IS him? I think Paulssen was the current captain when Werner was assigned to his first UBoat

I think it IS Ottokar Paulssen from Iron Coffins


is it?...hmm

[Thomen]

Originally Posted by Paul Riley

I think it IS Ottokar Paulssen from Iron Coffins


is it?...hmm

Maybe.. but the guy in the first picture is a NCO (Maat or Petty Officer)...

My guess is, that he is a PK (War Correspondent).
Paulssens promotion list does not show that he was ever an NCO during the war.

8 Apr 1934 Offiziersanwärter
1 Jul 1935 Fähnrich zur See
1 Jan 1937 Oberfähnrich zur See
1 Apr 1937 Leutnant zur See
1 Apr 1939 Oberleutnant zur See
1 Oct 1941 Kapitänleutnant
1 Dec 1941 Korvettenkapitän

[sharkbit]

Originally Posted by flag4

i am reading the same now. and Hardegen is just about nearing his American position for attack. have just been reading the american part about how innept and dismissive they where of what was coming - Incredible!!!!!

I'm at that same point now. It's interesting how Gannon points out that what was about to fall upon the American coast will be a bigger catastrophe than the attack on Pearl Harbor, yet is not widely known.
It's a shame how petty rivalries, back-stabbing, glory seeking, anti-English sentiment, and politics made this a catastrophe waiting to happen. The US Navy was tottally unprepared.

[sharkbit]

Originally Posted by Paul Riley

There's some fantastic books at Amazon,some truly rare and unique finds.
I worship Amazon!

Don't forget e-bay. I've bought a ton of used(and new) books there as well-cheap, cheap. Generally though, Amazon is usually the best and cheapest place for used and new books.
Barnes and Noble and Borders-

[Paul Riley]

Originally Posted by sharkbit

Don't forget e-bay. I've bought a ton of used(and new) books there as well-cheap, cheap. Generally though, Amazon is usually the best and cheapest place for used and new books.
Barnes and Noble and Borders-

Never tried B&N or Borders
Stick to Amazon mate,you can't go far wrong with them