Operation SeaLion 1940 (Final Conclusion)

STEED · 03-06-06, 07:02 PM

Just to inform everyone this issue is closed military experts today made a study of the military academy Sandhurst re-enactment in 1974 with veterans from England and Germany and those who were part of the planning of SeaLion, would have ended in a military defeat for Germany, the invasion area Dover they would have only got 18 to 20 miles in land and after a week of fighting forced to withdraw.

CCIP · 03-06-06, 07:24 PM

Link? :hmm:

STEED · 03-06-06, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP

Link? :hmm:

Sorry no link programme on Channel Four here in the UK a three part series The Real Dads Army.

Torpedo Fodder · 03-06-06, 10:35 PM

I heard about this too, and it doesn't surprise me, considering the Germans were using what were basically river barges for troop transports, and these could be swamped by the wake of a destroyer when fully loaded. Then there's the Royal Navy, who both the Kreigsmarine and Luftwaffe would be very hard pressed to eliminate even with air superiority, and would make getting those transports across the channel a very risky affair.

Seriously, the only reason D-Day succeded was the massive disinformation program the Allies ran during the preceding year to convince the Germans that the true landings would be at Calais. It's said that if the Germans knew the true locations of the D-Day landings as soon as 24 hours before the assault and acted on that info, it would have failed on the beaches. Hell even for some time after the landings, OKW was still convinced the landing was a diversionary thrust and didn't move forces away from Calais to Normandy until it was too late to stem the tide. I wonder how D-Day would have went if the Germans threw everything they had at the beachheads as soon as possible after the landings? If Operation Overlord, which was far better organized and equipped than Sealion, yet facing comparitivly weaker defences (and the attackers even had air superiority and almost no naval opposition to boot), would have failed if the defenders knew the true landing locations, I havn't much faith in the chances of Sealion's success.

Bertgang · 03-07-06, 07:07 AM

Good points, Torpedo Fodder, such operation in a known heavyly defended position, trough heavyly defended passages hardly could have had success.

I'll add that "Sea Lion" was a sort of experiment not planned in advance; why to allow the evacuation of Dunquerque, if you know that those soldiers later will defend theyr home ground?
The dream of an invasion appeared in Hitler's mind too late to have a decent hope of success.

STEED · 03-07-06, 08:26 AM

The Allies had a hard lesson in 1942 at Dieppe a lesson they did not repeat in 1944 at Normandy.

Oberon · 03-07-06, 11:33 AM

If Hitler had listened to Rommel (or anyone for that matter) the Wehrmarcht may well have been redeployed sooner.

August · 03-07-06, 11:38 AM

I'd take such pronouncements with a grain of salt. After all military history is filled with upsets.

03-07-06, 01:35 PM

Torpedo Fodder, I agree with what you say concering disinformation, but I think another important factor to the success at Normandy was the assembly of the largest armada ever created, the use of dedicated seagoing ships and landing craft, and most importantly complete and utter control of the skies over the area.

Oberon · 03-07-06, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Torpedo Fodder, I agree with what you say concering disinformation, but I think another important factor to the success at Normandy was the assembly of the largest armada ever created, the use of dedicated seagoing ships and landing craft, and most importantly complete and utter control of the skies over the area.

It certainly helped!

XabbaRus · 03-07-06, 05:23 PM

I saw that too. Now I want to go on a search of the UK for all these stop lines.

In my small town by the bridge we have a pill box.
On Balmedie beach between some dunes there is one that is tipped over a bit.

Really interesting.

I was wondering though how the RN fleet would have survived with I am assuming submarines about who would be gunning for the fleet on the way down from Scapa.

03-06-06, 07:02 PM	#1
STEED Lucky Jack Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Down Town UK Posts: 27,695 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 48	Operation SeaLion 1940 (Final Conclusion) Just to inform everyone this issue is closed military experts today made a study of the military academy Sandhurst re-enactment in 1974 with veterans from England and Germany and those who were part of the planning of SeaLion, would have ended in a military defeat for Germany, the invasion area Dover they would have only got 18 to 20 miles in land and after a week of fighting forced to withdraw. __________________ Dr Who rest in peace 1963-2017. To borrow Davros saying...I NAME YOU CHIBNALL THE DESTROYER OF DR WHO YOU KILLED IT!

03-06-06, 07:24 PM	#2
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	Link? :hmm: __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

03-06-06, 10:35 PM	#4
Torpedo Fodder Ensign Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Whitby, Ontario Posts: 234 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I heard about this too, and it doesn't surprise me, considering the Germans were using what were basically river barges for troop transports, and these could be swamped by the wake of a destroyer when fully loaded. Then there's the Royal Navy, who both the Kreigsmarine and Luftwaffe would be very hard pressed to eliminate even with air superiority, and would make getting those transports across the channel a very risky affair. Seriously, the only reason D-Day succeded was the massive disinformation program the Allies ran during the preceding year to convince the Germans that the true landings would be at Calais. It's said that if the Germans knew the true locations of the D-Day landings as soon as 24 hours before the assault and acted on that info, it would have failed on the beaches. Hell even for some time after the landings, OKW was still convinced the landing was a diversionary thrust and didn't move forces away from Calais to Normandy until it was too late to stem the tide. I wonder how D-Day would have went if the Germans threw everything they had at the beachheads as soon as possible after the landings? If Operation Overlord, which was far better organized and equipped than Sealion, yet facing comparitivly weaker defences (and the attackers even had air superiority and almost no naval opposition to boot), would have failed if the defenders knew the true landing locations, I havn't much faith in the chances of Sealion's success. __________________ Si vis pacem, para bellum - If you want peace, prepare for war. "Those who turn their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't"

03-07-06, 08:26 AM	#6
STEED Lucky Jack Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Down Town UK Posts: 27,695 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 48	The Allies had a hard lesson in 1942 at Dieppe a lesson they did not repeat in 1944 at Normandy. __________________ Dr Who rest in peace 1963-2017. To borrow Davros saying...I NAME YOU CHIBNALL THE DESTROYER OF DR WHO YOU KILLED IT!

03-07-06, 11:38 AM	#8
August Wayfaring Stranger Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 23,197 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I'd take such pronouncements with a grain of salt. After all military history is filled with upsets. __________________ Flanked by life and the funeral pyre. Putting on a show for you to see.

03-07-06, 07:07 AM	#5
Bertgang Sparky Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Italy Posts: 158 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	Good points, Torpedo Fodder, such operation in a known heavyly defended position, trough heavyly defended passages hardly could have had success. I'll add that "Sea Lion" was a sort of experiment not planned in advance; why to allow the evacuation of Dunquerque, if you know that those soldiers later will defend theyr home ground? The dream of an invasion appeared in Hitler's mind too late to have a decent hope of success.

03-07-06, 11:33 AM	#7
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	If Hitler had listened to Rommel (or anyone for that matter) the Wehrmarcht may well have been redeployed sooner.

03-07-06, 01:35 PM	#9
Sailor Steve Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Torpedo Fodder, I agree with what you say concering disinformation, but I think another important factor to the success at Normandy was the assembly of the largest armada ever created, the use of dedicated seagoing ships and landing craft, and most importantly complete and utter control of the skies over the area.

03-07-06, 05:23 PM	#11
XabbaRus Navy Seal Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,330 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	I saw that too. Now I want to go on a search of the UK for all these stop lines. In my small town by the bridge we have a pill box. On Balmedie beach between some dunes there is one that is tipped over a bit. Really interesting. I was wondering though how the RN fleet would have survived with I am assuming submarines about who would be gunning for the fleet on the way down from Scapa. __________________