General questions about SH5 and Mods

Rosomaha · 02-14-21, 12:40 PM

Hi. My experience of playing SH5 is about zero, and the little that is based on the stock SH5. Of course, I have run test missions many times, but the gameplay and the SH5 Campaigns are the most unfamiliar in the series for me. You can guess about the work of some things from the contents of the game files, but this does not always show reality and means that it works in the game and is not an appendix-remainder of the previous part. Answers can save time without having to figure out every moment by experimenting. In general, I wanted to find out the following aspects for possible modding:

1. The staff of guns on ships. I saw in the storage of original game some stock of various animations for combat installations, and this could give hope for prospects, but I never saw the AI shooters behind the guns in SH5, there are sailors and other personnel walking, standing, smoking and so on on the deck, but the guns are empty. Is this always an unfinished game function? No one has ever studied this direction, tried to "revive" the guns? Maybe they tried it, but had to give it up for some reason? Mods?

2. AI-submarines. In SH5, for the first time, it was added as a separate independent AI class (I see the corresponding controller in the game). Who has a lot of SH5 gaming experience can briefly share: How do they behave? Do they only walk on the surface? They can attack, shoot back, use the installed weapons? To escape? Active maneuvers in contact? Maybe there is some fundamental factor, a feature?

3. Has the intelligence AI of the submarine chasers been improved (in the huge-mods and by how much? Since I tried many times in a single-player test mission different Destroyers with different settings (including Late War period, Veteran, Elite level, etc.) - they all turned out to be very stupid, clumsy and low bombing accuracy, it was not difficult to get away from them, they never sank my submarine with depth charges in the test mission. The only thing that was noted - the British destroyers hunted a little better than the others. The same Destroyers in SH3-4 created many times more problems than do the destroyers in the original-stock SH5.

4. Magnetic torpedo fuses. I remember reading a topic here a long time ago that they do not work in SH5. Is that how it stayed? Has this been fixed in mods? Did any manage to make it work?

5. AI-torpedoes. On the aircraft and may be on ships? How about this in SH5? There are in the Mod? Progress compared to previous versions of SH? Do they work? Or do they work poorly?

kapuhy · 02-14-21, 03:48 PM

1 - No idea here, sorry. Never saw staff manning guns and don't know if it's possible other than modeling gunners as part of gun mesh.
2 - AI subs can shoot torpedoes and can operate submerged, in campaign as well (my experience here is limited too but I did see Polish sub torpedo a German battleship in Baltic operations campaign. Horrific experience, never saw that coming until torpedo splash).
3 - I don't know whether you've tested with stock or TWoS, but with the latter destroyers can be pretty persistent. They are still subject to many unfixed/unfixable AI bugs though - existence of land is out of context problem for them, and small subchasers have problems with depth charging because they try to avoid collision with (larger than them) submarine (even though submarine is 200 meters below them). Edit: this might be important for your Vosper, I certainly had my Fairmile behave this way. Y-guns work fine but DC racks constantly missed because of this.
4 - Magnetic torpedoes certainly work in TWoS. Their dud problems in early war are modeled too, though, so don't be shocked if you have 3 out of 4 fail in this period.
5 - Never saw surface or air unit use torpedo. I remember vdr1981 saying air torpedoes can work, but require some very specific way to set up in order for a plane to drop them.

Muckenberg · 02-15-21, 03:38 AM

Good day
To your question. Yes, I have to confirm that AI submarines fire torpedoes and can sink. I also witnessed an AI submarine duel with an escort. The AI submarine sailed at full throttle and successfully avoided depth charges. He even used reverse gear. I have no idea what depth he can dive the most. I also don't know if he can run quietly.
One thing would also interest me. How an AI submarine works when approaching an enemy. It has happened to me several times that the submarine arrived, but did not attack the enemy. She wandered around for a while, and although the target was clearly visible, it seemed as if the submarine could not see it.
I even saw a Polish submarine firing a volley of torpedoes through the periscope underwater. I was really surprised.

Rosomaha · 02-16-21, 01:43 PM

Thanks for the answers, friends.

Muckenberg · 02-16-21, 01:50 PM

Unfortunately, I can't confirm whether AI submarines use an onboard cannon and anti-aircraft cannons. But I would say no.

gap · 02-21-21, 06:30 PM

Hi Rosomaha, sorry for the late replies.

1 - I am not sure that we are talking about the same thing, but in stock game two crew members are assigned to the deck gun. Skip to 13:17 in the video below to see them in action:

2 - AI subs can use torpedoes and they can operate both submerged and surfaced. Their Ai is pretty limited though and they CAN'T use guns.

3 - Assuming that you are using IRAI, ASW vessel's AI is pretty erratic. I think veterancy level and fatigue play a role in deciding how clever/accurate they are, but there is a certain degree of randomness involved too. Rather than as flaw, this is a feature wanted by TDW. Nonetheless, IIRC, within IRAI files there is an .ini or cfg file used for setting the general difficulty level. Try playing with its parameters if you are not satisfied with the default figures.

4 - In stock game magnetic torpedoes were bugged. If memory serves, they only worked with imported .dat units. A patch by the same TDW fixed them, meaning that now GR2 units can trigger magnetic detonators (though early in campaign they will often fail due to dud settings in sim file). If I am not mistaken, a side effect of this patch is that now magnetic torpedoes won't work on .dat units.

5 - Air torpedoes are definitely a thing in SH5. I myself experimented with them in the past. As noted by kapuhy, their setting is a bit problematic though. From my experience, one of the main problems is they going backwards once dropped. I am sure there is a fix for this but it has been a long time since I last dealt with the issue, so I wont be able to give you the details of this fix. Equipment node naming and position relative to aircraft 3D model might be a factor, but take my statements above with a pinch of salt.

kapuhy · 02-22-21, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gap

If I am not mistaken, a side effect of this patch is that now magnetic torpedoes won't work on .dat units

Wait, what? That would be a huge problem as TWoS introduces so many .dat format ships that such issue would seriously degrade player's capabilities.

Ok I made a quick test with Zinbu freighter shooting 6 magnetic torpedoes at it... Well, only one detonated (and from external camera it might have gone too shallow and touch the ship). Might just have been a case of bad luck but if not, that's a bummer.

gap · 02-22-21, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kapuhy

Wait, what? That would be a huge problem as TWoS introduces so many .dat format ships that such issue would seriously degrade player's capabilities.

Ok I made a quick test with Zinbu freighter shooting 6 magnetic torpedoes at it... Well, only one detonated (and from external camera it might have gone too shallow and touch the ship). Might just have been a case of bad luck but if not, that's a bummer.

Okay, I have performed a quick forum search and after all it seems I was wrong:

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho...&postcount=325

Sorry for having spread misinformation and good hunting with magnetic torpedoes on dat units as well as on GR2 ones

kapuhy · 02-23-21, 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gap

Okay, I have performed a quick forum search and after all it seems I was wrong:

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho...&postcount=325

Sorry for having spread misinformation and good hunting with magnetic torpedoes on dat units as well as on GR2 ones

Thanks for looking it up, that's a relief

It's also an important information for modders, because if I understand TDW's post correctly it means ship's "sensitivity" to magnetic torpedo depends on how it's collision spheres are set up. At a quick glance, existing TWoS ships vary greatly in this regard:

gap · 02-23-21, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kapuhy

Thanks for looking it up, that's a relief

It's also an important information for modders, because if I understand TDW's post correctly it means ship's "sensitivity" to magnetic torpedo depends on how it's collision spheres are set up. At a quick glance, existing TWoS ships vary greatly in this regard:

Yes, in torpedo sim file there is a max magnetic detonation range parameter, but according to the post by TDW, the density and dimensions of collision spheres below ship keels are also an important factor. This is good, because I suppose that the actual magnetic detonation range varied depending on ship mass and even on building material (wooden hulled boats shouldn't trigger any magnetic detonation); by making spheres to stick more or less from each ship's bottom, we can simulate this.
Is there any information available on German pistol's average magnetic influence ranges?

Muckenberg · 02-23-21, 11:42 AM

Good day
if I understand the question correctly, you are interested in how far from the hull of the ship the magnetic detonator should have initiated the detonation of the torpedo?
I'll look at the materials I have available.

Aktungbby · 02-23-21, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kapuhy

Thanks for looking it up, that's a relief

It's also an important information for modders, because if I understand TDW's post correctly it means ship's "sensitivity" to magnetic torpedo depends on how it's collision spheres are set up. At a quick glance, existing TWoS ships vary greatly in this regard:

great informative post....errrrr: & I'm awfully partial to that magnetic color,

gap · 02-23-21, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muckenberg

Good day
if I understand the question correctly, you are interested in how far from the hull of the ship the magnetic detonator should have initiated the detonation of the torpedo?
I'll look at the materials I have available.

Yes, exactly.

An interesting essay that might contain some answers:
https://digitalcommons.georgiasouthe...99&context=etd

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

great informative post....errrrr: & I'm awfully partial to that magnetic color,

If you ask me, more radioactive than magnetic, but Yoda likes it...

Rosomaha · 03-15-21, 04:33 AM

Wow, this topic with questions did not go into oblivion. This is progress and good.

Hi, everyone, and welcome back.

I understood you correctly: the mechanics of the torpedoes remained the same as in the original game with the same shortcomings, but TDW made a solution to the issue with “magnets " by changing the Spheres and Boxes, namely, taking their geometric boundaries outside the 3D models in the files of the destruction zones in individual ships-units?

gap · 03-15-21, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rosomaha

I understood you correctly: the mechanics of the torpedoes remained the same as in the original game with the same shortcomings, but TDW made a solution to the issue with “magnets " by changing the Spheres and Boxes, namely, taking their geometric boundaries outside the 3D models in the files of the destruction zones in individual ships-units?

No, if memory serves, fixing the issue required an hardcoded patch, but the patch alone is not enough: some ships require their collision spheres near the keel to be adjusted for them to be subject to magnetic detonations...

02-14-21, 12:40 PM	#1
Rosomaha Loader Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Russia Posts: 83 Downloads: 72 Uploads: 1	General questions about SH5 and Mods Hi. My experience of playing SH5 is about zero, and the little that is based on the stock SH5. Of course, I have run test missions many times, but the gameplay and the SH5 Campaigns are the most unfamiliar in the series for me. You can guess about the work of some things from the contents of the game files, but this does not always show reality and means that it works in the game and is not an appendix-remainder of the previous part. Answers can save time without having to figure out every moment by experimenting. In general, I wanted to find out the following aspects for possible modding: 1. The staff of guns on ships. I saw in the storage of original game some stock of various animations for combat installations, and this could give hope for prospects, but I never saw the AI shooters behind the guns in SH5, there are sailors and other personnel walking, standing, smoking and so on on the deck, but the guns are empty. Is this always an unfinished game function? No one has ever studied this direction, tried to "revive" the guns? Maybe they tried it, but had to give it up for some reason? Mods? 2. AI-submarines. In SH5, for the first time, it was added as a separate independent AI class (I see the corresponding controller in the game). Who has a lot of SH5 gaming experience can briefly share: How do they behave? Do they only walk on the surface? They can attack, shoot back, use the installed weapons? To escape? Active maneuvers in contact? Maybe there is some fundamental factor, a feature? 3. Has the intelligence AI of the submarine chasers been improved (in the huge-mods and by how much? Since I tried many times in a single-player test mission different Destroyers with different settings (including Late War period, Veteran, Elite level, etc.) - they all turned out to be very stupid, clumsy and low bombing accuracy, it was not difficult to get away from them, they never sank my submarine with depth charges in the test mission. The only thing that was noted - the British destroyers hunted a little better than the others. The same Destroyers in SH3-4 created many times more problems than do the destroyers in the original-stock SH5. 4. Magnetic torpedo fuses. I remember reading a topic here a long time ago that they do not work in SH5. Is that how it stayed? Has this been fixed in mods? Did any manage to make it work? 5. AI-torpedoes. On the aircraft and may be on ships? How about this in SH5? There are in the Mod? Progress compared to previous versions of SH? Do they work? Or do they work poorly?

02-21-21, 06:30 PM	#6
gap Navy Seal Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: CJ8937 Posts: 8,215 Downloads: 793 Uploads: 10	Hi Rosomaha, sorry for the late replies. 1 - I am not sure that we are talking about the same thing, but in stock game two crew members are assigned to the deck gun. Skip to 13:17 in the video below to see them in action: 2 - AI subs can use torpedoes and they can operate both submerged and surfaced. Their Ai is pretty limited though and they CAN'T use guns. 3 - Assuming that you are using IRAI, ASW vessel's AI is pretty erratic. I think veterancy level and fatigue play a role in deciding how clever/accurate they are, but there is a certain degree of randomness involved too. Rather than as flaw, this is a feature wanted by TDW. Nonetheless, IIRC, within IRAI files there is an .ini or cfg file used for setting the general difficulty level. Try playing with its parameters if you are not satisfied with the default figures. 4 - In stock game magnetic torpedoes were bugged. If memory serves, they only worked with imported .dat units. A patch by the same TDW fixed them, meaning that now GR2 units can trigger magnetic detonators (though early in campaign they will often fail due to dud settings in sim file). If I am not mistaken, a side effect of this patch is that now magnetic torpedoes won't work on .dat units. 5 - Air torpedoes are definitely a thing in SH5. I myself experimented with them in the past. As noted by kapuhy, their setting is a bit problematic though. From my experience, one of the main problems is they going backwards once dropped. I am sure there is a fix for this but it has been a long time since I last dealt with the issue, so I wont be able to give you the details of this fix. Equipment node naming and position relative to aircraft 3D model might be a factor, but take my statements above with a pinch of salt. __________________ _____________________ \|May the Force be with you!\| ...\/ Last edited by gap; 02-22-21 at 07:58 PM.

02-14-21, 03:48 PM	#2
kapuhy Grey Wolf Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Poland Posts: 874 Downloads: 72 Uploads: 3	1 - No idea here, sorry. Never saw staff manning guns and don't know if it's possible other than modeling gunners as part of gun mesh. 2 - AI subs can shoot torpedoes and can operate submerged, in campaign as well (my experience here is limited too but I did see Polish sub torpedo a German battleship in Baltic operations campaign. Horrific experience, never saw that coming until torpedo splash). 3 - I don't know whether you've tested with stock or TWoS, but with the latter destroyers can be pretty persistent. They are still subject to many unfixed/unfixable AI bugs though - existence of land is out of context problem for them, and small subchasers have problems with depth charging because they try to avoid collision with (larger than them) submarine (even though submarine is 200 meters below them). Edit: this might be important for your Vosper, I certainly had my Fairmile behave this way. Y-guns work fine but DC racks constantly missed because of this. 4 - Magnetic torpedoes certainly work in TWoS. Their dud problems in early war are modeled too, though, so don't be shocked if you have 3 out of 4 fail in this period. 5 - Never saw surface or air unit use torpedo. I remember vdr1981 saying air torpedoes can work, but require some very specific way to set up in order for a plane to drop them.

02-15-21, 03:38 AM	#3
Muckenberg Planesman Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 193 Downloads: 527 Uploads: 0	Good day To your question. Yes, I have to confirm that AI submarines fire torpedoes and can sink. I also witnessed an AI submarine duel with an escort. The AI submarine sailed at full throttle and successfully avoided depth charges. He even used reverse gear. I have no idea what depth he can dive the most. I also don't know if he can run quietly. One thing would also interest me. How an AI submarine works when approaching an enemy. It has happened to me several times that the submarine arrived, but did not attack the enemy. She wandered around for a while, and although the target was clearly visible, it seemed as if the submarine could not see it. I even saw a Polish submarine firing a volley of torpedoes through the periscope underwater. I was really surprised.

02-16-21, 01:43 PM	#4
Rosomaha Loader Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Russia Posts: 83 Downloads: 72 Uploads: 1	Thanks for the answers, friends.

02-16-21, 01:50 PM	#5
Muckenberg Planesman Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 193 Downloads: 527 Uploads: 0	Unfortunately, I can't confirm whether AI submarines use an onboard cannon and anti-aircraft cannons. But I would say no.

02-23-21, 11:42 AM	#11
Muckenberg Planesman Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 193 Downloads: 527 Uploads: 0	Good day if I understand the question correctly, you are interested in how far from the hull of the ship the magnetic detonator should have initiated the detonation of the torpedo? I'll look at the materials I have available.

03-15-21, 04:33 AM	#14
Rosomaha Loader Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Russia Posts: 83 Downloads: 72 Uploads: 1	Wow, this topic with questions did not go into oblivion. This is progress and good. Hi, everyone, and welcome back. I understood you correctly: the mechanics of the torpedoes remained the same as in the original game with the same shortcomings, but TDW made a solution to the issue with “magnets " by changing the Spheres and Boxes, namely, taking their geometric boundaries outside the 3D models in the files of the destruction zones in individual ships-units?