Libyan ace Al-Obedi killed in Benghazi

[Oberon]

https://www.libyaherald.com/2016/07/...s-in-benghazi/

Major Idris Hamed Al-Obedi was killed this morning when his MiG-23 crashed into the ground in Benghazis Ganfouda district shortly after he had completed a bombing mission. It is unknown whether he was shot down or whether a technical or pilot error was to blame.
Al-Obedi was one of Libyas most accomplished pilots, having begun flying in 1984 and logged thousands of hours in a multitude of aircraft.
In the west he became noticed for his aerobatic skills and in particular his low fly bys which made their way onto social media and the web.



RIP Major Al-Obedi.

[Sailor Steve]

Sad loss, but I do have one complaint against the reporting, and that is the use of the word "ace". There is only one circumstance for that term to be used for a pilot, and that is when he has shot down five or more of his enemies. This is not meant to slight Major Al-Obedi, who by all reports was a great pilot, but did he fulfill the requirement for that term?

It's like when reporters call a destroyer a "battleship". It happens a lot, but it doesn't make it so.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Sad loss, but I do have one complaint against the reporting, and that is the use of the word "ace". There is only one circumstance for that term to be used for a pilot, and that is when he has shot down five or more of his enemies. This is not meant to slight Major Al-Obedi, who by all reports was a great pilot, but did he fulfill the requirement for that term?

It's like when reporters call a destroyer a "battleship". It happens a lot, but it doesn't make it so.

Good point, fair point too. Do ground targets count towards attaining ace status though? And, whilst I was doing a quick bit of research into the definition of an ace, wikipedia made a fair point, how many more Aces will there been in future wars? Since fighter vs fighter combat is becoming less frequent in modern warfare and unmanned aircraft are becoming more common, we could be looking at the end of the era of Aces.

[Jimbuna]

Blue Skies

[Commander Wallace]

From the images, it appears to be a MiG-23 as you mentioned. Wilkipedia suggests the MiG-23 was a fighter / interceptor/ and attack bomber or strike aircraft.

" quote "


Operational history

Western sources, generally attribute a very limited number of confirmed air-to-air victories to the MiG-23 while reporting a higher number of MiG-23s downed mostly by Israeli Air Force in 1982, while Russian sources generally decrease the number of losses and increase the number of inflicted kills bringing the air-to-air kill to loss ratio to around parity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-23


Wilkipedia also suggests that a pilot with 5 or more " kills " is sufficient for attaining the status of " ace "


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_ace


This is not meant to be a denigration of his flying abilities.



A better example of an ace might have been German pilot Erich Hartmann who is the top ace of all time with 352 kills.

The Soviet Air Forces has the first Allied pilots in terms of aerial victories, Ivan Kozhedub credited with 66 victories and Alexander Pokryshkin scored 65 victories. It also claimed the only female aces of the war: Lydia Litvyak scored 12 victories and Yekaterina Budanova achieved 11 Fighting on different sides, the French pilot Pierre Le Gloan had the unusual distinction of shooting down four German, seven Italian and seven British aircraft, the latter while he was flying for Vichy France in Syria.


American Pilot Col. Robin Olds is yet another example. (July 14, 1922 – June 14, 2007) was an American fighter pilot and general officer in the U.S. Air Force. He was a "triple ace", with a combined total of 16 victories in World War II and the Vietnam War He retired in 1973 as a brigadier general.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Olds


There are many more examples of pilots who have attained " Ace " status

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by Commander Wallace

From the images, it appears to be a MiG-23 as you mentioned. Wilkipedia suggests the MiG-23 was a fighter / interceptor/ and attack bomber or strike aircraft.

Could also be a 27 which is the ground attack version of the 23.

[Commander Wallace]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Could also be a 27 which is the ground attack version of the 23.

Because the MiG 23 and 27 share the same basic airframe and as you said, the MiG 27 is the ground attack version of the MiG 23, you are right, except the MiG 27 has a " Platapus nose " the MiG 23 nose is more stream lined. The picture Oberon posted looks like it has a stream lined nose but it's hard to tell since the aircraft nose profile is not visible in it's entirety.

[Dowly]

AFAIK, ground kills were not counted, unless you were someone like Rudel (who, IIRC, was called an ace in terms of ground kills, but not an actual 'ace')

As such, he is no 'ace', but sorry to hear of his loss nevertheless.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Dowly

AFAIK, ground kills were not counted, unless you were someone like Rudel (who, IIRC, was called an ace in terms of ground kills, but not an actual 'ace')

As such, he is no 'ace', but sorry to hear of his loss nevertheless.

I think Rudel got 7 air kills too so was also a proper Ace.

[Von Due]

War is a strange business and during WW2 there were commanders who accepted ground kills as counting for ace status. Whether the top brass knew or not is another story entirely. Another issue is overclaiming which happened in all involved airforces during that war. Nowadays one would perhaps think it's harder to overclaim, what with all the electronic eyes watching but who knows what can happen when things get a bit out of hand.

(On a total sidenote: The WW2 German Jg 27, while stationed in North Africa were accused of overclaiming by those in the unit who didn't get their iron crosses. It died out with no real action taken except for the alleged masterminds, but it's a curious story what happened to one of their pilots. A genuine ace he faced the possibility of being stripped of his victories with the rest. He took off and crashed his plane into the sea. Serious business indeed.
That story was told in the book "A Higher Call" in case someone want to read about pilots on the other side.)

Anyway, that was somewhat off topic.

[Raptor1]

Originally Posted by Commander Wallace

Because the MiG 23 and 27 share the same basic airframe and as you said, the MiG 27 is the ground attack version of the MiG 23, you are right, except the MiG 27 has a " Platapus nose " the MiG 23 nose is more stream lined. The picture Oberon posted looks like it has a stream lined nose but it's hard to tell since the aircraft nose profile is not visible in it's entirety.

The aircraft in the picture must be a MiG-23 because it has the variable intake ramps that were removed from the MiG-27.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Raptor1

The aircraft in the picture must be a MiG-23 because it has the variable intake ramps that were removed from the MiG-27.

Yeah, it is a 23ML, Libya doesn't have any 27s, and now they only have one 23.

Originally Posted by Von Due

(On a total sidenote: The WW2 German Jg 27, while stationed in North Africa were accused of overclaiming by those in the unit who didn't get their iron crosses. It died out with no real action taken except for the alleged masterminds, but it's a curious story what happened to one of their pilots. A genuine ace he faced the possibility of being stripped of his victories with the rest. He took off and crashed his plane into the sea. Serious business indeed.
That story was told in the book "A Higher Call" in case someone want to read about pilots on the other side.)

Anyway, that was somewhat off topic.

Ah yes, 27, that was Marseilles unit wasn't it? Good chap, and not a bad pilot either despite his Lolwaffle tendancies with landings...

[Von Due]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Ah yes, 27, that was Marseilles unit wasn't it? Good chap, and not a bad pilot either despite his Lolwaffle tendancies with landings...

Indeed it was. The Eternal Headache of his superiors who didn't watch him fly. Good thing for him Berlin didn't seem to know their Star of Africa was a loose cannon with a taste for women and jazz music. No military marches on his gramophone player Could very well be he saw himself a jazz plane lander as well.

[Catfish]

^

Saw it first at the age of 14 or so, even then was not exactly blown away by some trickfilm scenes..

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Catfish

^

Saw it first at the age of 14 or so, even then was not exactly blown away by some trickfilm scenes..

Oh nice, will have to have a look at that later.

One tidbit about Marseille I found in the wiki made me chuckle:

Marseille was a gifted pianist and was invited to play a piece at the home of Willy Messerschmitt, an industrialist and designer of the Messerschmitt Bf 109 fighter Marseille had achieved so much success in.
Guests at the party included Adolf Hitler, party chairman Martin Borman, Hitler's deputy and Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe, Hermann Göring, head of the SS, Heinrich Himmler and Reich Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels.
After impressing with a display of piano play for over an hour, including Ludwig van Beethoven's Für Elise, Marseille proceeded to play American Jazz, which was considered degenerate in Nazi ideology. Hitler stood, raised his hand, and said "I think we've heard enough" and left the room.
Magda Goebbels found the prank amusing and Artur Axmann recalled how his "blood froze" when he heard this "Ragtime" music being played in front of the Führer.