Deck gun fore, or aft?

Flaskegaard · 09-07-15, 01:11 PM

I have been researching for any information on any OFFICIAL reason the deck gun on the US WW2 submarines should be fore or aft. So far all I have been able to come up with is "Captain's preference". Was there any official Navy preference on deck gun placement? Each class of US WW2 subs had a mixture of both fore and aft deck gun placement...What are your preferences?....and why?

Rockin Robbins · 09-07-15, 01:18 PM

It could go either way, based on captain's instructions. Most WWII captains preferred the deck gun aft because they were on the defensive on the surface, more likely to be chased than to chase. For popping sampans it didn't matter which way it was mounted.

Staunch · 09-07-15, 01:45 PM

Dick O'Kane mentions in his book "Clear the Bridge" that he thought it was also a hindrance to underwater speed to have a gun mounted on the foredeck.

Sniper297 · 09-10-15, 04:37 PM

Sam Dealey (USS HARDER SS-257) said something to the effect "why would I want the deck gun aft? Am I supposed to be running away from somebody?"

OTOH his attitude might not have been the best, since HARDER was lost with all hands in 1944. Got a lot of gongs though, nobody ever told him to "be more aggressive" since he deliberately sought out destroyers as targets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_David_Dealey

Tshark · 09-11-15, 08:32 AM

Since the submarine is more maneuverable and faster than most merchants wouldn't an aft mounted deck gun allow for a closer/tighter circle around the target while still maintaining a firing solution? I also agree that the submarine loses a majority of its advantage as a hunter during a surface gun battle and would want to be setup to disengage ASAP if I suddenly lose the perceived advantage.

Rockin Robbins · 09-11-15, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper297

Sam Dealey (USS HARDER SS-257) said something to the effect "why would I want the deck gun aft? Am I supposed to be running away from somebody?"

OTOH his attitude might not have been the best, since HARDER was lost with all hands in 1944. Got a lot of gongs though, nobody ever told him to "be more aggressive" since he deliberately sought out destroyers as targets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_David_Dealey

It's a shame that Admiral Christy actually encouraged such foolhardy tactics as hunting destroyers. It's one thing to be in a forced battle with one and pop off a few down the throat shots. But those are low percentage bets to be made in desparate times, not frivolous adventures to be sought by one more concerned with personal glory than ending the war.

Dealey's logs taught Fluckey a lot, both good and things not to do. Christy should have been canned right after the captured American minelayer killed Harder and her crew.

Flaskegaard · 09-13-15, 11:15 PM

24 August 1944:
At 0630, as USS HARDER and LtCdr Frank E. Haylor’s (USNA ’36) USS HAKE (SS-256) close Dasol Bay, Haylor makes out a three-stack ship and a smaller one coming out of the bay. Haylor consults his ONI 41-42 naval-intelligence warship recognition booklet. He incorrectly identifies three-stack PB-102 (captured Clemson class destroyer USS Stewart) as old Thai destroyer PHRA RUANG and also misidentifies kaibokan CD-22 as a minesweeper. As they come out of the harbor, the crews of PB-102 and CD-22 see the submarines' two periscopes. PB-102's captain turns about and heads back into Dasol Bay, but CD-22 comes straight on. [2]
LtCdr Haylor does not like the setup, as he sensed a trap, so USS HAKE breaks off, goes deep, and begins evasive maneuvers. However, USS HARDER continues in towards the bay. CD-22 suddenly comes under a torpedo attack. Cdr Dealey fires three torpedoes at CD-22 in a down-the-throat attack, but misses. Two torpedoes pass off CD-22's port side and one off her starboard side. Wanting to get another crack at her, Dealey does not order deep submergence, probably thinking it's only a minesweeper, and not believing her capable of delivering a serious counter-attack. But the "minesweeper" was actually CD-22, a Type D Kaibokan, armed with 16 Type 94 DC throwers, eight on each side of her fantail. After evading the torpedoes, CD-22 detects USS HARDER with her Type 3 sonar. At 0728, CD-22 commences a depth charge run with her Type 94 DC throwers with each charge set to detonate deeper than the last. This attack sinks USS HARDER with all hands. A large amount of oil, pieces of cork and wood surface thereafter. CD-22 soon departs the area to catch up with PB-102 and NIYO MARU. At 1948, all three arrive at Manila. [3]

U505995 · 09-14-15, 09:58 AM

I always put the deck gun on the bow since the decrease in underwater performance isn't modeled in game. I also like chasing down targets so a forward deck gun is best.

Rockin Robbins · 09-14-15, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flaskegaard

24 August 1944:
At 0630, as USS HARDER and LtCdr Frank E. Haylor’s (USNA ’36) USS HAKE (SS-256) close Dasol Bay, Haylor makes out a three-stack ship and a smaller one coming out of the bay. Haylor consults his ONI 41-42 naval-intelligence warship recognition booklet. He incorrectly identifies three-stack PB-102 (captured Clemson class destroyer USS Stewart) as old Thai destroyer PHRA RUANG and also misidentifies kaibokan CD-22 as a minesweeper. As they come out of the harbor, the crews of PB-102 and CD-22 see the submarines' two periscopes. PB-102's captain turns about and heads back into Dasol Bay, but CD-22 comes straight on. [2]
LtCdr Haylor does not like the setup, as he sensed a trap, so USS HAKE breaks off, goes deep, and begins evasive maneuvers. However, USS HARDER continues in towards the bay. CD-22 suddenly comes under a torpedo attack. Cdr Dealey fires three torpedoes at CD-22 in a down-the-throat attack, but misses. Two torpedoes pass off CD-22's port side and one off her starboard side. Wanting to get another crack at her, Dealey does not order deep submergence, probably thinking it's only a minesweeper, and not believing her capable of delivering a serious counter-attack. But the "minesweeper" was actually CD-22, a Type D Kaibokan, armed with 16 Type 94 DC throwers, eight on each side of her fantail. After evading the torpedoes, CD-22 detects USS HARDER with her Type 3 sonar. At 0728, CD-22 commences a depth charge run with her Type 94 DC throwers with each charge set to detonate deeper than the last. This attack sinks USS HARDER with all hands. A large amount of oil, pieces of cork and wood surface thereafter. CD-22 soon departs the area to catch up with PB-102 and NIYO MARU. At 1948, all three arrive at Manila. [3]

Sure would like to know where that came from. My info came from the official publication of the US Sub Veterans of World War II, the Polaris. Unfortunately the organization was disbanded in 2015, their website is gone and all those great "Remember this?" stories are not on the web any more. The website that was responsible for all Paul Wittmer's material is also gone.

ColonelSandersLite · 09-14-15, 11:19 AM

He got it from here:
http://www.combinedfleet.com/PB-102_t.htm

fred8615 · 09-14-15, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Sure would like to know where that came from. My info came from the official publication of the US Sub Veterans of World War II, the Polaris. Unfortunately the organization was disbanded in 2015, their website is gone and all those great "Remember this?" stories are not on the web any more. The website that was responsible for all Paul Wittmer's material is also gone.

Have you tried the Wayback Machine?:

https://archive.org/web/

Flaskegaard · 09-15-15, 04:58 PM

http://www.combinedfleet.com/kaigun.htm

It lists the service history of most of the IJN ships involved in the Pacific War. I edited in details from interviews of the surviving crew members of CD-22 and the USS Hake made during the investigation into Harder's loss after the war. Kaibokan CD-22 was also one of the escorts that severely damaged the USS Salmon in a depth charge attack after the Salmon torpedoed the TAKANE MARU, a large 10,000 ton tanker. The TAKANE MARU was immobile after being damaged in an earlier torpedo attack by USS Trigger.

09-07-15, 01:11 PM	#1
Flaskegaard Medic Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Washington State, USA Posts: 159 Downloads: 885 Uploads: 0	Deck gun fore, or aft? I have been researching for any information on any OFFICIAL reason the deck gun on the US WW2 submarines should be fore or aft. So far all I have been able to come up with is "Captain's preference". Was there any official Navy preference on deck gun placement? Each class of US WW2 subs had a mixture of both fore and aft deck gun placement...What are your preferences?....and why?

09-07-15, 01:18 PM	#2
Rockin Robbins Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: DeLand, FL Posts: 8,900 Downloads: 135 Uploads: 52	It could go either way, based on captain's instructions. Most WWII captains preferred the deck gun aft because they were on the defensive on the surface, more likely to be chased than to chase. For popping sampans it didn't matter which way it was mounted. __________________ Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks, Slightly Subnuclear Mk 14 & Cutie, Slightly Subnuclear Deck Gun, EZPlot 2.0, TMOPlot, TMOKeys, SH4CMS

09-07-15, 01:45 PM	#3
Staunch Swabbie Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Columbia, Missouri Posts: 8 Downloads: 131 Uploads: 0	Dick O'Kane's thoughts Dick O'Kane mentions in his book "Clear the Bridge" that he thought it was also a hindrance to underwater speed to have a gun mounted on the foredeck.

09-13-15, 11:15 PM	#7
Flaskegaard Medic Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Washington State, USA Posts: 159 Downloads: 885 Uploads: 0	24 August 1944: At 0630, as USS HARDER and LtCdr Frank E. Haylor’s (USNA ’36) USS HAKE (SS-256) close Dasol Bay, Haylor makes out a three-stack ship and a smaller one coming out of the bay. Haylor consults his ONI 41-42 naval-intelligence warship recognition booklet. He incorrectly identifies three-stack PB-102 (captured Clemson class destroyer USS Stewart) as old Thai destroyer PHRA RUANG and also misidentifies kaibokan CD-22 as a minesweeper. As they come out of the harbor, the crews of PB-102 and CD-22 see the submarines' two periscopes. PB-102's captain turns about and heads back into Dasol Bay, but CD-22 comes straight on. [2] LtCdr Haylor does not like the setup, as he sensed a trap, so USS HAKE breaks off, goes deep, and begins evasive maneuvers. However, USS HARDER continues in towards the bay. CD-22 suddenly comes under a torpedo attack. Cdr Dealey fires three torpedoes at CD-22 in a down-the-throat attack, but misses. Two torpedoes pass off CD-22's port side and one off her starboard side. Wanting to get another crack at her, Dealey does not order deep submergence, probably thinking it's only a minesweeper, and not believing her capable of delivering a serious counter-attack. But the "minesweeper" was actually CD-22, a Type D Kaibokan, armed with 16 Type 94 DC throwers, eight on each side of her fantail. After evading the torpedoes, CD-22 detects USS HARDER with her Type 3 sonar. At 0728, CD-22 commences a depth charge run with her Type 94 DC throwers with each charge set to detonate deeper than the last. This attack sinks USS HARDER with all hands. A large amount of oil, pieces of cork and wood surface thereafter. CD-22 soon departs the area to catch up with PB-102 and NIYO MARU. At 1948, all three arrive at Manila. [3] Last edited by Flaskegaard; 09-13-15 at 11:27 PM.

09-14-15, 11:19 AM	#10
ColonelSandersLite Captain Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 481 Downloads: 74 Uploads: 3	He got it from here: http://www.combinedfleet.com/PB-102_t.htm __________________ My SH4 LP

09-10-15, 04:37 PM	#4
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	Sam Dealey (USS HARDER SS-257) said something to the effect "why would I want the deck gun aft? Am I supposed to be running away from somebody?" OTOH his attitude might not have been the best, since HARDER was lost with all hands in 1944. Got a lot of gongs though, nobody ever told him to "be more aggressive" since he deliberately sought out destroyers as targets. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_David_Dealey

09-11-15, 08:32 AM	#5
Tshark Sailor man Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 49 Downloads: 52 Uploads: 0	Since the submarine is more maneuverable and faster than most merchants wouldn't an aft mounted deck gun allow for a closer/tighter circle around the target while still maintaining a firing solution? I also agree that the submarine loses a majority of its advantage as a hunter during a surface gun battle and would want to be setup to disengage ASAP if I suddenly lose the perceived advantage.

09-14-15, 09:58 AM	#8
U505995 Planesman Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Wisconsin, the best state in the union. Posts: 191 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	I always put the deck gun on the bow since the decrease in underwater performance isn't modeled in game. I also like chasing down targets so a forward deck gun is best.

09-15-15, 04:58 PM	#12
Flaskegaard Medic Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Washington State, USA Posts: 159 Downloads: 885 Uploads: 0	http://www.combinedfleet.com/kaigun.htm It lists the service history of most of the IJN ships involved in the Pacific War. I edited in details from interviews of the surviving crew members of CD-22 and the USS Hake made during the investigation into Harder's loss after the war. Kaibokan CD-22 was also one of the escorts that severely damaged the USS Salmon in a depth charge attack after the Salmon torpedoed the TAKANE MARU, a large 10,000 ton tanker. The TAKANE MARU was immobile after being damaged in an earlier torpedo attack by USS Trigger.