Wakeless Mark 16...can anyone with the knowledge do this?

[Bubblehead1980]

Asked this before and someone generously removed the wake.However the AI still spotted the torpedoes even with the wake gone, assuming the computer allows them to detect all torpedos except Mark 18 electric and Cutie homing torpedoes. Question is, could a Mark 16 be made so it is treated like a Mark 18 and has no wake? This would really make the torpedo worth the cost, more powerful, great range and wakeless(as it was in RL from what ive read) Anyone with the knowledge willing to do this?

[in_vino_vomitus]

Wasn't the mark 16 a modified mark 14? - As I understand it it was still steam powered. On a related note though, does anyone know if there's any reliability advantage to using it?

[merc4ulfate]

Not realistic but if you wanted a better torpedo .... run a U-boat LOL

There were wake-less torpedoes used as early as 39 by the Germans.

The Mark 16 was never used during world war 2 but it did remain in service from 45 to the mid 70's. Only 1700 hundred were produced.

Also the Mark 16 was not steam but H2O2 driven.


======================================


Ship Class Used OnSubmarines
Date Of Design 1944
Date In Service 1945
Weight Mod 0: 3,895 lbs. (1,766 kg) , Mod 1: 3,922 lbs. (1,799 kg)
Overall Length 20 ft 6 in (6.248 m)
Explosive Charge Mod 0: 1,260 lbs. (572 kg) TPX, Mod 1: 960 lbs. (435 kg) HBX
Range / Speed, Mod 0: 7,000 yards (6,400 m) / 46 knots, Mod 1: 11,500 yards (10,500 m) / 46 knots
Power Hydrogen Peroxide (Navol) turbine
Guidance Mark 12 Mod 3 gyro

Notes: A high-performance but high-cost torpedo. Not used during the war but it remained in service until the mid-1970s. 1,700 produced.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTUS_WWII.htm




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[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by merc4ulfate

Not realistic but if you wanted a better torpedo .... run a U-boat LOL

There were wake-less torpedoes used as early as 39 by the Germans.

The Mark 16 was never used during world war 2 but it did remain in service from 45 to the mid 70's. Only 1700 hundred were produced.

Also the Mark 16 was not steam but H2O2 driven.


======================================


Ship Class Used OnSubmarines
Date Of Design 1944
Date In Service 1945
Weight Mod 0: 3,895 lbs. (1,766 kg) , Mod 1: 3,922 lbs. (1,799 kg)
Overall Length 20 ft 6 in (6.248 m)
Explosive Charge Mod 0: 1,260 lbs. (572 kg) TPX, Mod 1: 960 lbs. (435 kg) HBX
Range / Speed, Mod 0: 7,000 yards (6,400 m) / 46 knots, Mod 1: 11,500 yards (10,500 m) / 46 knots
Power Hydrogen Peroxide (Navol) turbine
Guidance Mark 12 Mod 3 gyro

Notes: A high-performance but high-cost torpedo. Not used during the war but it remained in service until the mid-1970s. 1,700 produced.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTUS_WWII.htm




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A. Played u boats, was fun for a few but lost interest after a short time.

B. I know the Mark 16 was not used in combat although they were finished before the war and would have been used if war had not ended.They are in he game and like to use them in later career. They were essentially wakeless from what I read and no, they were not a Mark 14.They had a much longer range, could pattern run(although cant in game) and had a more powerful warhead.Torpedo is expensive in the game and if one chooses to use it in game, should be worth it.Being wakeless would make it worth while, esp in later war in RSRD as convoys run the coast, making surfaced attacks a necessity and with radar, can't always fire from a decent range.

While not 100% realistic, neither is the sim, it is a sim.I play as realistic as possible but exceptions for things like this can be made.

[Armistead]

The M14 wasn't totally wakeless, left a mild wake from the H202 process, but it could hardly be seen, except in very calm water. My guess is even if you remove it's wake, the game sees it as a steam torp. Maybe it could be switched to electric.

[Stealhead]

Doing some scanning around on Uboat.net I found several discussions on hydrogen peroxide powered torpedoes from what I can gather they if properly operating did not leave a wake because the hydrogen peroxide was completely consumed and did not leave behind a bubble generating by product as an air,oxygen,or kerosene powered torpedo would.

Basically H2O2 completely consumes O2 so no bubbles.

The fuel so far as I can tell in all H2O2 torpedoes was HTP(high test hydrogen peroxide). Apparently some naval forces are still using Swedish H2O2 torpedoes.

Here is a link to several discussions on H2O2 torpedoes http://uboat.net/forums/read.php?20,...5148#msg-85148

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Armistead

The M14 wasn't totally wakeless, left a mild wake from the H202 process, but it could hardly be seen, except in very calm water. My guess is even if you remove it's wake, the game sees it as a steam torp. Maybe it could be switched to electric.

I know but like so many things in SH 4, no in middle ground so think that to to immunlate the "barely visible" wake and the advantage it provides should have undetectable to the AI like the Mark 17.I have no idea switch it but figured could be made where the AI treats like a Mark 18 electric torpedo, doesnt detect it until, well its over.

[Armistead]

On my laptop out of town, but will look at files. If someone removed the tex wake, my guess is that in itself doesn't solve it. I haven't looked in the torp files in a long time, but maybe a way to resolve it.

I know what you mean by those late war shallow convoys, usually packed with deadly TypeA-D escorts.

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

Doing some scanning around on Uboat.net I found several discussions on hydrogen peroxide powered torpedoes from what I can gather they if properly operating did not leave a wake because the hydrogen peroxide was completely consumed and did not leave behind a bubble generating by product as an air,oxygen,or kerosene powered torpedo would.

Basically H2O2 completely consumes O2 so no bubbles.

Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidizer and while it could be used by itself (undergoing rapid exothermic decomposition), it is likely it was used with some kind of hydrocarbon fuel, like so:

(fuel) + H2O2 > H2O (steam) + CO2

So you get steam and carbon dioxide. The steam will condense quickly, and supposidly most of the CO2 will also. I've read most of the bubble trail of steam torpedoes comes from the nitrogen, as air supplies the oxygen for the combustion and 80% of air is nitrogen.

In spite of what I've read, I find it hard to believe any fuel torpedo is completely trackless. Honestly, I think the whole wake business is very much overblown. Many ships were sunk by steam torpedoes, so the bubble track didn't seem to do the target ships much good.

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by TorpX

Many ships were sunk by steam torpedoes, so the bubble track didn't seem to do the target ships much good.

I cant find any solid information about the Mk.16 so you may be correct and no place with more reliable technical data does it imply that this was an feature or advantage.

However simply because many ships where sunk by steam torpedoes does not prove that the disadvantage of a track is overblown.For starters in many cases during WWI and WWII(depending on date and navy) they where the only type of torpedo available so of course they are going to sink a lot of ships being the only torpedo available.

If there was no chance of spotting a wake or that it made no difference then it would have made little sense to have the lookouts look for wakes it the first place.Navies the world over trained with dummy torpedoes that passed under hulls of course this was dual training because the sub is trying to attack without getting spotted and the ship to spot the wake of a torpedo or a periscope in time to evade if one spotted a periscope the vigilance for wakes of torpedoes would greatly increase.Why they would spend so much time and effort on this if it did give some obvious advantage seems strange.

I think that you underestimate the disadvantage of a wake and it seems evident that many ships did in fact spot wakes and take evasive action.

Many US submarine where attacked or witnessed targets firing at the wakes of their torpedo tracks so they where obviously fairly visible and from a greater range it is very feasible for a ships lookouts to spot and report a track and for the ship to counter in time this is part of the logic for firing a spread of torpedoes the is to account for any possible errors in aim.

[joefremont]

The MK16 was infact a modified MK14 with H2O2 instead of the air bottle and a larger warhead. My experience using it in the game is that it does have a smaller wake as the targets less likely to try to evade them than the MK14 but I did read that later in the war the Japanese installed sonar on merchant ships so that even if the MK16 was wakeless it was not silent and any merchant that heard a torpedo in the water is going to start turning to evade it, that may be what your noticing as the targets 'detecting' the torpedo.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by joefremont

The MK16 was infact a modified MK14 with H2O2 instead of the air bottle and a larger warhead. My experience using it in the game is that it does have a smaller wake as the targets less likely to try to evade them than the MK16 but I did read that later in the war the Japanese installed sonar on merchant ships so that even if the MK16 was wakeless it was not silent and any merchant that heard a torpedo in the water is going to start turning to evade it, that may be what your noticing as the targets 'detecting' the torpedo.

The game does not mirror their ability to detect torpedoes on sonar, as far as I know but that would make sense. If so, they would detect the Mark 18's but they never do.Game either see's a torpedo or it does not, regardless of the wake that we see, they do not detect mark 18's or mark 27 homing torpedos.The game with it's limitations, is very black and white sometimes, they either see a torpedo or they dont.I am thinking a mark 16 that enemy AI treats like Mark 18 would be a reasonable way to mimic the minimal wake of te mark 16 and justify the high cost if player chooses to use them in later war.

[Armistead]

I see your point Bubble, but never really messed with torps. Did you not say that someone once removed the wake, but they still spotted the torp as if it had a wake? If so, just makes me wonder if the wake we see is a mere texture, visual eye candy, that has no effect on how the AI sees a steam torpedo. I couldn't say what parameters set the AI off to see them, but maybe it isn't the wake. Anyway, I'll look at the torp files when I get home, be interesting to see what values exist regarding wakes or no wakes. I do recall seeing a value for trail and fairly sure several exist where you can adjust wake. Just wonder what would happen if you deleted the wake texture for the M16.....have you tried just as a test?

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by Armistead

I see your point Bubble, but never really messed with torps. Did you not say that someone once removed the wake, but they still spotted the torp as if it had a wake? If so, just makes me wonder if the wake we see is a mere texture, visual eye candy, that has no effect on how the AI sees a steam torpedo.

In the confines of the game AI I dont think they "see" the wake that you see graphically.For example it has been stated many times that they are not effected by camo so you could have a bright orange submarine it would not effect the AI vision they either "see" or they do not "see" based on different factors.I think that they have a chance to "sense"(that simulates visually seeing the wake) torpedoes that have a wake usually it is too late to matter but sometimes they manage to evade.

Bubble claims that they can not detect torpedoes by hydrophone but I am fairly sure that they can only very few cargo ships have a hydrophone I have seen escorts pick up torpedoes on the hydrophone before I know this because they were mk18s I have also seen small cargo ships detect torpedoes by sound again because they where mk18s .It seems that usually only the small cargo ships have a chance of carrying a hydrophone.

Also the skill variation has a factor in detection as do weather and light conditions.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

In the confines of the game AI I dont think they "see" the wake that you see graphically.For example it has been stated many times that they are not effected by camo so you could have a bright orange submarine it would not effect the AI vision they either "see" or they do not "see" based on different factors.I think that they have a chance to "sense"(that simulates visually seeing the wake) torpedoes that have a wake usually it is too late to matter but sometimes they manage to evade.

Bubble claims that they can not detect torpedoes by hydrophone but I am fairly sure that they can only very few cargo ships have a hydrophone I have seen escorts pick up torpedoes on the hydrophone before I know this because they were mk18s I have also seen small cargo ships detect torpedoes by sound again because they where mk18s .It seems that usually only the small cargo ships have a chance of carrying a hydrophone.

Also the skill variation has a factor in detection as do weather and light conditions.

That was my guess, that the wake is eye candy, but I couldn't say for sure. It's been a long time, but they're are numerous values regarding the wake in torp files, so I wouldn't rule the wake out, unless someone knows for sure or simply deleted the wake, which I can't do being out of town.

I don't know that IJN merchants carried sonar, except a rare few acting as Q ships, maybe a few others.

As long as I've played the game, I've never seen any behavior that any ship picked up torps on sonar, nor have I seen any values for such. Not saying it's not possible, but I've never seen that behavior.