DW Sonar detection range.

kevinlv · 06-05-13, 01:39 AM

Hi,my DW friend,this is DW goer in China.I here raise a question about sonar detection range.

1) I think it's vital to know if own-ship is within opposite sub's detection range,or vice-versa.
Is this point correct or practical in DW?

2)DW editor show the US Seawolf's TAs' detect range is around 10nm,while forum discussion reveals that Seawolf can detect contacts beyond 20nm in DW.
what's the actually detection range of Sealwolf in DW stock104?

3)If sonar detection ranges varies in different weather/Sea condition.
How can I make sure if enemy might be in my detection zone,and vice-versa
under certain sea/weather circumstances.

Nexus7 · 06-05-13, 10:32 AM

Parameters that influence your detection range (that come to mind) are:
- noise of the target (his platform type, his speed)
- target's depth and your own depth (see SSP monitor, Sound Propagation Profile, target's location SSP might be different!)
- topography of the sea bottom

and (not sure)
- sea state (flows direction and speed, temperature)
- how your TA is disposed in regards of the target (direct line from target perpendicular on TA is best) and your own speed (the TA sinks in other sound speed depths)

... meaning a lot of variables are involved and its probably not calculable in game.

I think the best thing you can do is to learn it by training missions (thats how I learned it in SC). Find another player and have him change range, speed and depth (communicate) to see the result on your sonar station. Try vs different platforms and maybe different sea states

This should give you a good awareness on detection ranges

kevinlv · 06-07-13, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus7

Parameters that influence your detection range (that come to mind) are:
- noise of the target (his platform type, his speed)
- target's depth and your own depth (see SSP monitor, Sound Propagation Profile, target's location SSP might be different!)
- topography of the sea bottom

and (not sure)
- sea state (flows direction and speed, temperature)
- how your TA is disposed in regards of the target (direct line from target perpendicular on TA is best) and your own speed (the TA sinks in other sound speed depths)

... meaning a lot of variables are involved and its probably not calculable in game.

I think the best thing you can do is to learn it by training missions (thats how I learned it in SC). Find another player and have him change range, speed and depth (communicate) to see the result on your sonar station. Try vs different platforms and maybe different sea states

This should give you a good awareness on detection ranges

Thanks,Nexus7,your explaination is very comprehensive.
Hoping DW with you again in future.

Nexus7 · 06-07-13, 10:07 AM

Another important factor that influences the detection range I forgot is sea bottom type (rock, mud ecc).

fastbikkel · 07-17-13, 05:13 PM

Interesting topic.

I've just come back from a long absence. I was running Sub command akula again and got disappointed with the detection ranges.
I was hoping that would have been improved in a big way in DW.

I really remember a british submariner saying they picked up the Belgrano from at least 120km away. Could have been 150 as well.

So there ya go. When was the falkland war? I mean which season? I can see pictures of rough seas in my mind, misty weather. Looked winterish.
Just to imply that even in rough weather subs can pick up ships from very far away. Noted that the Belgrano was an old ship, possibly ww2 design.

If DW or any other modern subsim cannot come up with better ranges, then it is a waste of time i think.

Edited : what i forgot to mention is... in Sub command you cannot even pick up a surface ship 50km away. It is just sad.

antred · 07-18-13, 12:28 AM

Maybe they picked up the Belgrano via a convergence zone? I believe convergence zones may enable SONAR to detect contacts at far longer ranges than would normally be possible.

kevinlv · 07-18-13, 12:54 AM

ANYONE interested in DW MP SESSION with Me?
location:GMT + 8
version:Stock104
network: Hamachi required.
skill level :Sealwolf average.

Please PM me if you will join in!

fastbikkel · 07-18-13, 05:29 AM

@ANtred

Quite possible.

But i have to point out that i have clocked serious time in testing this situation.
Making a mission with some random ships at certain distances and depths.

Anything above 50miles is a no no. (there is a difference of course between surface and subsurface ships)
Even if i operated the sonar by hand (which i really like) it did not work.
If i did see a noise on the sonar, i was not able to mark it.
If the signal is too weak (even if visible on the waterfall display) it will not mark period.

I have no high hopes of Sub command anymore. I wanted to buy DW because i was hoping this sonar part had been seriously improved. But at the moment i have no confidence and i am actually looking at a ww2 subsim.
(i prefer nuclear though)

Pisces · 07-18-13, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastbikkel

@ANtred

Quite possible.

But i have to point out that i have clocked serious time in testing this situation.
Making a mission with some random ships at certain distances and depths.

Anything above 50miles is a no no. (there is a difference of course between surface and subsurface ships)
Even if i operated the sonar by hand (which i really like) it did not work.
If i did see a noise on the sonar, i was not able to mark it.
If the signal is too weak (even if visible on the waterfall display) it will not mark period.

I have no high hopes of Sub command anymore. I wanted to buy DW because i was hoping this sonar part had been seriously improved. But at the moment i have no confidence and i am actually looking at a ww2 subsim.
(i prefer nuclear though)

You have to keep in mind that Sonalysts cannot give realistic data of sensor performance in their games. The US Navy wouldn't tolerate it if their secrets were publicly available. And Sonalysts would loose their defense contracts. So you have to take things with a grain of salt. Therefore mods came into existance to up the realism a bit to what is known publicly about sensor and weapon performance. Or at least what seems reasonable.

fastbikkel · 07-18-13, 03:39 PM

I understand the secrets involved. But if that british submariner gave that info on Discovery channel then at least we can use that data and tweak our games a bit.

If i knew how to adjust it, i would do it myself for sure.

Even if we just enlarge the detection range by let's say, 100% it would be a huge difference already.

We do not need sonalysts to do that, i do understand they have to watch their legal obligations.

I will bring this back to the Sub command section though if i continue, im not being fair replying here on DW.

Nexus7 · 07-18-13, 06:39 PM

What is your problem in not detecting stuff more than 50nm away when your torpedoes will never make that distance? Bad mission design or what

on edit i wish to add that playability can be toxic versus realism.

fastbikkel · 07-19-13, 03:17 AM

@Nexus7
Serious?

Any captain wants to know what is in the water, in range or not.

It is the military, not a civilian service.

Edit : i understand the realism vs gaming issue. But i am very honest in that, i want realism only. I really do not mind letting the computer run a mission for a week. I keep the volume on and react to a call, even at night. (in the holidays)

Pisces · 07-19-13, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastbikkel

I understand the secrets involved. But if that british submariner gave that info on Discovery channel then at least we can use that data and tweak our games a bit.

If i knew how to adjust it, i would do it myself for sure.

Even if we just enlarge the detection range by let's say, 100% it would be a huge difference already.

We do not need sonalysts to do that, i do understand they have to watch their legal obligations.

I will bring this back to the Sub command section though if i continue, im not being fair replying here on DW.

Well, feel free:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/down...o=file&id=3966

Marcantilan · 07-19-13, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastbikkel

I really remember a british submariner saying they picked up the Belgrano from at least 120km away. Could have been 150 as well.

So there ya go. When was the falkland war? I mean which season? I can see pictures of rough seas in my mind, misty weather. Looked winterish.
Just to imply that even in rough weather subs can pick up ships from very far away. Noted that the Belgrano was an old ship, possibly ww2 design.

Conqueror picked up on broadband a fleet oiler RASsing TG 79.3 at 90 nm. There isn´t a convergence zone there, due to lack of depth.

Regards,

antred · 07-19-13, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcantilan

Conqueror picked up on broadband a fleet oiler RASsing TG 79.3 at 90 nm.

What does "RASsing" mean?

06-05-13, 01:39 AM	#1
kevinlv Loader Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: nanjing,China Posts: 85 Downloads: 84 Uploads: 0	DW Sonar detection range. Hi,my DW friend,this is DW goer in China.I here raise a question about sonar detection range. 1) I think it's vital to know if own-ship is within opposite sub's detection range,or vice-versa. Is this point correct or practical in DW? 2)DW editor show the US Seawolf's TAs' detect range is around 10nm,while forum discussion reveals that Seawolf can detect contacts beyond 20nm in DW. what's the actually detection range of Sealwolf in DW stock104? 3)If sonar detection ranges varies in different weather/Sea condition. How can I make sure if enemy might be in my detection zone,and vice-versa under certain sea/weather circumstances.

06-05-13, 10:32 AM	#2
Nexus7 Commander Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 469 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Parameters that influence your detection range (that come to mind) are: - noise of the target (his platform type, his speed) - target's depth and your own depth (see SSP monitor, Sound Propagation Profile, target's location SSP might be different!) - topography of the sea bottom and (not sure) - sea state (flows direction and speed, temperature) - how your TA is disposed in regards of the target (direct line from target perpendicular on TA is best) and your own speed (the TA sinks in other sound speed depths) ... meaning a lot of variables are involved and its probably not calculable in game. I think the best thing you can do is to learn it by training missions (thats how I learned it in SC). Find another player and have him change range, speed and depth (communicate) to see the result on your sonar station. Try vs different platforms and maybe different sea states This should give you a good awareness on detection ranges __________________ If you are going through hell... keep going (Winston Churchill)

06-07-13, 10:07 AM	#4
Nexus7 Commander Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 469 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Another important factor that influences the detection range I forgot is sea bottom type (rock, mud ecc). __________________ If you are going through hell... keep going (Winston Churchill)

07-17-13, 05:13 PM	#5
fastbikkel Mate Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 59 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	Interesting topic. I've just come back from a long absence. I was running Sub command akula again and got disappointed with the detection ranges. I was hoping that would have been improved in a big way in DW. I really remember a british submariner saying they picked up the Belgrano from at least 120km away. Could have been 150 as well. So there ya go. When was the falkland war? I mean which season? I can see pictures of rough seas in my mind, misty weather. Looked winterish. Just to imply that even in rough weather subs can pick up ships from very far away. Noted that the Belgrano was an old ship, possibly ww2 design. If DW or any other modern subsim cannot come up with better ranges, then it is a waste of time i think. Edited : what i forgot to mention is... in Sub command you cannot even pick up a surface ship 50km away. It is just sad. __________________ -When the enemy is in range, so are you- -When violence doesn't do the job, you are not using enough-

07-18-13, 05:29 AM	#8
fastbikkel Mate Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 59 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	@ANtred Quite possible. But i have to point out that i have clocked serious time in testing this situation. Making a mission with some random ships at certain distances and depths. Anything above 50miles is a no no. (there is a difference of course between surface and subsurface ships) Even if i operated the sonar by hand (which i really like) it did not work. If i did see a noise on the sonar, i was not able to mark it. If the signal is too weak (even if visible on the waterfall display) it will not mark period. I have no high hopes of Sub command anymore. I wanted to buy DW because i was hoping this sonar part had been seriously improved. But at the moment i have no confidence and i am actually looking at a ww2 subsim. (i prefer nuclear though) __________________ -When the enemy is in range, so are you- -When violence doesn't do the job, you are not using enough- Last edited by fastbikkel; 07-18-13 at 05:41 AM.

07-18-13, 12:28 AM	#6
antred Nub Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 3 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Maybe they picked up the Belgrano via a convergence zone? I believe convergence zones may enable SONAR to detect contacts at far longer ranges than would normally be possible.

07-18-13, 12:54 AM	#7
kevinlv Loader Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: nanjing,China Posts: 85 Downloads: 84 Uploads: 0	ANYONE interested in DW MP SESSION with Me? location:GMT + 8 version:Stock104 network: Hamachi required. skill level :Sealwolf average. Please PM me if you will join in!

07-18-13, 03:39 PM	#10
fastbikkel Mate Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 59 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	I understand the secrets involved. But if that british submariner gave that info on Discovery channel then at least we can use that data and tweak our games a bit. If i knew how to adjust it, i would do it myself for sure. Even if we just enlarge the detection range by let's say, 100% it would be a huge difference already. We do not need sonalysts to do that, i do understand they have to watch their legal obligations. I will bring this back to the Sub command section though if i continue, im not being fair replying here on DW. __________________ -When the enemy is in range, so are you- -When violence doesn't do the job, you are not using enough-

07-18-13, 06:39 PM	#11
Nexus7 Commander Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 469 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	What is your problem in not detecting stuff more than 50nm away when your torpedoes will never make that distance? Bad mission design or what on edit i wish to add that playability can be toxic versus realism. __________________ If you are going through hell... keep going (Winston Churchill) Last edited by Nexus7; 07-18-13 at 06:51 PM.

07-19-13, 03:17 AM	#12
fastbikkel Mate Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 59 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	@Nexus7 Serious? Any captain wants to know what is in the water, in range or not. It is the military, not a civilian service. Edit : i understand the realism vs gaming issue. But i am very honest in that, i want realism only. I really do not mind letting the computer run a mission for a week. I keep the volume on and react to a call, even at night. (in the holidays) __________________ -When the enemy is in range, so are you- -When violence doesn't do the job, you are not using enough- Last edited by fastbikkel; 07-19-13 at 07:49 AM.