Ordered to attack the escorts?!?

[HertogJan]

On my second patrol I encountered a small but very nice convoy consisting of a large troop transport, a 10.T tanker (Nippon Maru) and two 8.T merchants and was escorted by 3 DD.

I reported the contact and got the message to attack the escorts instead of the tanker or troop transport.... Was something about softening up the defenses for later assaults.

That made me think....
Was this really done, sending men to their death like that?

Don't get me wrong, they took a chance getting killed every time they went out there and I salute them for their bravery and heroism but to give a order to the Cpt. of a sub to attack a Escort instead of the convoy is/was plain dumb imo.

[Red October1984]

I have never heard of such a thing. Are you running any mods?

[Armistead]

Don't recall ever seeing that one4, but don't worry, radio message orders aren't connected to score, sink what you want.

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by HertogJan

That made me think....
Was this really done, sending men to their death like that?

Don't get me wrong, they took a chance getting killed every time they went out there and I salute them for their bravery and heroism but to give a order to the Cpt. of a sub to attack a Escort instead of the convoy is/was plain dumb imo.

I think there is the question of interpretation here. If you were positioned for an immediate attack on a heavily escorted convoy, and another sub was farther along it's track, you might be given an order to the effect that you should make an attack even if a successful attack was not especially likely. Drawing off escorts would help set up later attacks. I do not think a USN submarine would ever be given orders for a suicide mission, though.

You should have saved the message. Maybe it was just poorly phrased.

[troopie]

Originally Posted by TorpX

If you were positioned for an immediate attack on a heavily escorted convoy, and another sub was farther along it's track, you might be given an order to the effect that you should make an attack even if a successful attack was not especially likely. Drawing off escorts would help set up later attacks.

I seem to remember reading/seeing doco's discribing U-boats, at one stage, getting orders exactly like that (maybe early war, or when accoustic torps were introduced? I forget.). For an order like that to be given in game sounds like an excellent peice of realism to me. Though like TorpX said I'm not sure if the yanks would've done that. Are you playing UBM's?

Even to take out one escort would give the next skipper a much better chance.

[HertogJan]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

I have never heard of such a thing. Are you running any mods?

I'm running SH IV 1.5 with:TMO 2.5, OTC (for TMO 2.5 / 8 to 5 aspect ratio), Improved Stock ENV (for TMO) and DC water disturbance_V 2.0.

Originally Posted by Armistead

Don't recall ever seeing that one4, but don't worry, radio message orders aren't connected to score, sink what you want.

I Didn't know that ooh well...

I sunk the port DD with by firing all 4 bow torpedoes, spread at 0.5* angle interval to port with the third one set to 0.5* starboard angle just incase she decided to go for a halt.

3 out of 4 hit and obliterated her by the second torpedo.

I was getting greedy when the lead escort came looking for me I decided to lure her in and fire 2 aft torpedoes, both hit the nose and bounced off of her. (forgot to set them to magnetic).

After a few hours of dodging I finally escaped unharmed.

(On one of my earlier patrols, getting destroyed by my own torpedo when she exploded by the phrase "torpedo in the water" I went with 'no dud's').

Originally Posted by TorpX

I think there is the question of interpretation here. If you were positioned for an immediate attack on a heavily escorted convoy, and another sub was farther along it's track, you might be given an order to the effect that you should make an attack even if a successful attack was not especially likely. Drawing off escorts would help set up later attacks. I do not think a USN submarine would ever be given orders for a suicide mission, though.

The message read more or less something like:
"Attack the escorts, weakening the convoy for later attacks with other assets". So you have a point there.

Originally Posted by TorpX

You should have saved the message. Maybe it was just poorly phrased.

Hasn't that bin saved somewhere in my SH4 saved games folder?


HJ

[merc4ulfate]

I have never been ordered to attack the escorts first but I have done it on occasion.

If I felt the merchants were lightly gunned and escorted (one escort positioned in the lead and one to the stern of the last merchant) I would take the lead escort out first. Dive deep all ahead flank. When I felt the escort was within 2000 yards or past 120 degrees to my bow I would slow to 1/3 all quiet and if I am lucky it heads towards my firing position while I get closer to the merchants. I would ready the fish, come to periscope depth, fire towards my targets, angle into the convoy, and once the fish had hit ... or missed , I would surface and try to fire using the stern tubes while the front loaded and the deck gun on the closest ship. When I would notice the escort coming towards me I lined up so that I could try to keep it dead astern while I fired at it with my deck gun. The narrow silhouette made me harder to hit and even though it could outrun me on the surface flank speed could keep enough distance away that I could slow it down and sometimes destroy it with my deck gun with minimal or no damage at all.

The merchants would then be easier to pick off with fish or the deck gun.

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by HertogJan

I Didn't know that ooh well...

Armistead makes a good point. The message is mostly for "immersion".

The message read more or less something like:
"Attack the escorts, weakening the convoy for later attacks with other assets". So you have a point there.



Hasn't that bin saved somewhere in my SH4 saved games folder?

I guess you could read it by loading up your save game. IDK if they are saved in a seperate file.

[Cybermat47]

In 1943 the American subs were ordered to attack the escorts, in order to wipe them out, so that may be the case.

[BigWalleye]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

In 1943 the American subs were ordered to attack the escorts, in order to wipe them out, so that may be the case.

Cybermat, I don't mean to challenge you, I am just curious and would like to follow up with my own reading. Can you give us your source for that?

[aanker]

You may have radioed you sighted a convoy and then got the order to sink Escorts. I think what is suppose to happen is the convoy gets attacked by allied Task Force aircraft if they are in the area, after you sink the Escorts.

I never radio when I spot a convoy because I don't think it is realistic for the 'Silent Service' USN.... plus it may give away my position. I will radio for a new objective when I need to and I think it is safe.

The Germans radioed everything so they could report convoys and coordinate their wolfpacks. Although the US used them occasionally, most of the patrols were single boats in an assigned area/sector.

Happy Hunting!

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by BigWalleye

Can you give us your source for that?

Of course! It's in this really big book called 'Submarines: the illustrated history' by Richard Humble, and published by (my edition at least) Connoisseur.

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

In 1943 the American subs were ordered to attack the escorts, in order to wipe them out, so that may be the case.

Were they ordered to attack escorts in preference to other ships, or to attack escorts as well as other ships?

It is well known that doctrine was changed to allow attacks on escorts ,since their destruction helped our submarine campaign, but I never heard of orders being given to make escorts primary targets.

[captgeo]

Well I must be the other exception, I have been ordered to attack the escorts during my patrol's before, no problem sink them first and then you can really have fun with the rest of the convoy.

[Arlo]

Guess I'm the third .... TMO 2.5 - 1943