What's Changed?

Tessa · 07-14-10, 11:23 PM

For those that remember me, sorry about suddenly dissapearing. My ISP got disconnected then got seriously sick for a few month. I'd been working with Jasun on SH3Commander working to add the additional ranks, correct insignia and trying to correct a few other things; sorry Jasun for suddenly going MIA.

As I've been gone for over a year, there's 2 main questions I've got before I start back up. First, is GWX 3 a quantum leap above 2.1? While the graphics aspect of it sound amazing, the content/realizm has been more of a selling point for me (though sinking the Hood 4 times in one patrol was quite the accomplishment, though not very real). And most important, was GWX 3 (and for that matter if they didn't, have any subsequent versions been able to fix it) able to fix destoyers endleslly depth charging you once you've successfully bottomed the boat (even as deep as 200-250m). It always infuriated me that there was no question my boat was on the bottom (external camera showed it as clear as day) yet DD's still dropped charges with pinpoint accuracy.

No Captain irl would have wasted ordinance like that; they might have dropped one or two more as a coup de grax but never a dozen or more like that game does/did. Is this still the case? Sonar of the day could have never pinpointed a submarine on the bottom, that technology was still years to come. While it's feasable that one could hear noise on the hydrophone if the crew was making noise, otherwise a sub on the bottom should be invisible to any craft of the day.

timmy41 · 07-15-10, 12:11 AM

welcome back!

sooo....does this mean one day well be able to hide on the bottom?

Tessa · 07-15-10, 12:53 AM

Bottoming the boat was one way Kaleun's used to evade the enemy. If they could effectively get the keel on the bottom it made it indistinguishable from the surrounding terrain (excluding shallow water). The only clue the DD above would have is if their hydrophone operator picked up the sounds of the keel touching the bottom.

Imagine filling an empty jacuzzi with ice (enough at least to cover the seats and sides). Obviously any boat moving around inside the area is gonna stick out; now imagine if that same boat plants itself of the side where the surface is irregular shaped. Sonar of the day would have been unable to distinguish between the ordinary ice cube or a 30" cylindrical one sitting on the ground. Even in Das Boot when the ship bottoms out the DD make no attempt to further depth charge it. Sonar couldn't distinguish between whether an object on the bottom was a rock or ship unless it moved.

What had initially infuriated me was that I managed to bottom my VIIC in Gibraltor (southern side) at 250m+ (guestimatted at around 300m). Using the external cam I watched a pair of DD's depth charge me with pinpoint precision at 1/4 of a mile depth, simply ridiculous.

For that matter, weaponry that precise didn't come into service till decades after WWII had ended.

07-15-10, 12:58 AM

It's a problem with SH3's detection routine.
Not the fault of any Mod.

The AI Ships can see you through a land mass also.
And ground themselves going after you if it's in the way!

Tessa · 07-15-10, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by privateer

It's a problem with SH3's detection routine.
Not the fault of any Mod.

The AI Ships can see you through a land mass also.
And ground themselves going after you if it's in the way!

I remember that it was the game engine itself that was the source of this problem, all the mods have done is of a positive nature. I'd hoped that someone had figured out how to circumvent this flaw and make it more realistic, and also if they continue to do the same thing in SH IV and V?

GWX was able to fix a lot of shortcomings/bugs with the stock game, since v3 came out during my hiatus I'd hoped that someone on the team had mananged to work this bug out; it can really ruin the game at times.

07-15-10, 01:34 AM

It's the same in Sh4 and (I believe) SH5.
Except in SH5 you take damage some meters ABOVE the bottom.
(An attempted fix?)
So don't try bottoming in SH5!

Tessa · 07-15-10, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by privateer

It's the same in Sh4 and (I believe) SH5.
Except in SH5 you take damage some meters ABOVE the bottom.
(An attempted fix?)
So don't try bottoming in SH5!

The whole DRM aside (don't wanna touch that monsters) looks like SH3 will be the last subsim I ever buy (albeit 3+ years ago). There was one aspect of SH5 that looked intriguing that you could actually change the tide of the war and not get boxed into 1945 being the end regardless of how well you (and the kriegsmarine for that matter) performed. Being able to win as the Germans made games like Panzer General great and worth the hours playing it like a heated chess match. Guess the only last laught with SHIII is getting into a XXI and dodging escorts in a convoy (submerged obviously) at flank speed and watching them look like fools trying to even keep track of where you were.

Jimbuna · 07-15-10, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tessa

The whole DRM aside (don't wanna touch that monsters) looks like SH3 will be the last subsim I ever buy (albeit 3+ years ago). There was one aspect of SH5 that looked intriguing that you could actually change the tide of the war and not get boxed into 1945 being the end regardless of how well you (and the kriegsmarine for that matter) performed. Being able to win as the Germans made games like Panzer General great and worth the hours playing it like a heated chess match. Guess the only last laught with SHIII is getting into a XXI and dodging escorts in a convoy (submerged obviously) at flank speed and watching them look like fools trying to even keep track of where you were.

Well there's little chance of you getting 'boxed into 1945' with stock SH5....the game/war ends mid 1943.

maillemaker · 07-15-10, 09:27 AM

Yup. Had my best career ever ended in mid 1942 just a couple of days ago by getting bombed while on the bottom.

Hit a convoy south of Ireland. Direct hit by a depth charge destroyed both electric engines. We fell to the bottom in 112m of water. I got the boat patched up to stop the leaks and went silent. They circled, but eventually they dropped the things right down the pipe and the pressure got us.

Steve

Tessa · 07-15-10, 07:27 PM

Thats a crying shame that bug (depth charge) never got fixed; pretty much looses any of my interest in any of the existing (or possible new ones) versions. With GWX (any version for that matter) you get anything better that's available commercially.

I'm no fan of game cheats, the depth charge one the game uses is imo a huge cheat the game uses against you which you really have no counter. Does/did GWX limit the # of charges each ship could carry?

Seminole · 07-15-10, 08:53 PM

On the other hand...

.....if bottoming your boat always allowed you to avoid being detected and depth charged...well...think about it....

...what would that do to game play?

One could stay in waters 300 meters deep or less and virtually remove destroyers as a threat.

But I get your point..it would be nice to be able to pull the bottoming out trick once in a while. Just as cool would be the ability to play dead and send up an oil slick with debris...including dead crewmembers...but I ain't holding my breath for that one either.

timmy41 · 07-15-10, 10:02 PM

maybe a command could be made for the game that severely decreases detection. It would be entered by the player. it could be entered again to turn it off. This would be used when bottomed out, but of course theres no way to enforce this, it would have to be entrusted to the honor system, but its better than nothing.

Tessa · 07-15-10, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seminole

On the other hand...

.....if bottoming your boat always allowed you to avoid being detected and depth charged...well...think about it....

...what would that do to game play?

One could stay in waters 300 meters deep or less and virtually remove destroyers as a threat.

But I get your point..it would be nice to be able to pull the bottoming out trick once in a while. Just as cool would be the ability to play dead and send up an oil slick with debris...including dead crewmembers...but I ain't holding my breath for that one either.

Bottoming in this game is a lot easier than one where it had a real contour of the ocean floor. If you're in 25-50m of water bottoming wouldn't be my first option unless I had major damage to repair, even then the amount of noise for repairs will attract the DD anyways.

Even when you do successfully bottom the boat, you're last know coordinates are really close to where you've ended up; so in reality you're just shot yourself in the foot. you know they're gonna roll some more charges before they leave anyways. Now if you were 300m away imo you should be safe.

Bottoming is always a gamble and another tactic for the commander, its not a trumph car to make the boat invisible, and never should be. Also just being 200m+ under doesn't make you safe, I've been charged with sniper precision in Gibraltor at 350m by a single DD. That is what really got me flared up; that a boat is able to know my exact location 1/4 of a mile underwater with my ship bottomed (and with no previous surface contact).

07-14-10, 11:23 PM	#1
Tessa Grey Wolf Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: CG 96 Posts: 861 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 0	What's Changed? For those that remember me, sorry about suddenly dissapearing. My ISP got disconnected then got seriously sick for a few month. I'd been working with Jasun on SH3Commander working to add the additional ranks, correct insignia and trying to correct a few other things; sorry Jasun for suddenly going MIA. As I've been gone for over a year, there's 2 main questions I've got before I start back up. First, is GWX 3 a quantum leap above 2.1? While the graphics aspect of it sound amazing, the content/realizm has been more of a selling point for me (though sinking the Hood 4 times in one patrol was quite the accomplishment, though not very real). And most important, was GWX 3 (and for that matter if they didn't, have any subsequent versions been able to fix it) able to fix destoyers endleslly depth charging you once you've successfully bottomed the boat (even as deep as 200-250m). It always infuriated me that there was no question my boat was on the bottom (external camera showed it as clear as day) yet DD's still dropped charges with pinpoint accuracy. No Captain irl would have wasted ordinance like that; they might have dropped one or two more as a coup de grax but never a dozen or more like that game does/did. Is this still the case? Sonar of the day could have never pinpointed a submarine on the bottom, that technology was still years to come. While it's feasable that one could hear noise on the hydrophone if the crew was making noise, otherwise a sub on the bottom should be invisible to any craft of the day.

07-15-10, 08:53 PM	#11
Seminole Ace of the Deep Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,012 Downloads: 102 Uploads: 0	On the other hand........if bottoming your boat *always* allowed you to avoid being detected and depth charged...well...think about it.......what would *that* do to game play? One could stay in waters 300 meters deep or less and virtually remove destroyers as a threat. But I get your point..it would be nice to be able to pull the bottoming out trick once in a while. Just as cool would be the ability to play dead and send up an oil slick with debris...including dead crewmembers...but I ain't holding my breath for that one either. __________________

07-15-10, 12:11 AM	#2
timmy41 Weps Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 367 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	welcome back! sooo....does this mean one day well be able to hide on the bottom?

07-15-10, 12:53 AM	#3
Tessa Grey Wolf Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: CG 96 Posts: 861 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 0	Bottoming the boat was one way Kaleun's used to evade the enemy. If they could effectively get the keel on the bottom it made it indistinguishable from the surrounding terrain (excluding shallow water). The only clue the DD above would have is if their hydrophone operator picked up the sounds of the keel touching the bottom. Imagine filling an empty jacuzzi with ice (enough at least to cover the seats and sides). Obviously any boat moving around inside the area is gonna stick out; now imagine if that same boat plants itself of the side where the surface is irregular shaped. Sonar of the day would have been unable to distinguish between the ordinary ice cube or a 30" cylindrical one sitting on the ground. Even in Das Boot when the ship bottoms out the DD make no attempt to further depth charge it. Sonar couldn't distinguish between whether an object on the bottom was a rock or ship unless it moved. What had initially infuriated me was that I managed to bottom my VIIC in Gibraltor (southern side) at 250m+ (guestimatted at around 300m). Using the external cam I watched a pair of DD's depth charge me with pinpoint precision at 1/4 of a mile depth, simply ridiculous. For that matter, weaponry that precise didn't come into service till decades after WWII had ended.

07-15-10, 12:58 AM	#4
Madox58 Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	It's a problem with SH3's detection routine. Not the fault of any Mod. The AI Ships can see you through a land mass also. And ground themselves going after you if it's in the way!

07-15-10, 01:34 AM	#6
Madox58 Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	It's the same in Sh4 and (I believe) SH5. Except in SH5 you take damage some meters ABOVE the bottom. (An attempted fix?) So don't try bottoming in SH5!

07-15-10, 09:27 AM	#9
maillemaker Sea Lord Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,639 Downloads: 75 Uploads: 0	Yup. Had my best career ever ended in mid 1942 just a couple of days ago by getting bombed while on the bottom. Hit a convoy south of Ireland. Direct hit by a depth charge destroyed both electric engines. We fell to the bottom in 112m of water. I got the boat patched up to stop the leaks and went silent. They circled, but eventually they dropped the things right down the pipe and the pressure got us. Steve

07-15-10, 07:27 PM	#10
Tessa Grey Wolf Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: CG 96 Posts: 861 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 0	Thats a crying shame that bug (depth charge) never got fixed; pretty much looses any of my interest in any of the existing (or possible new ones) versions. With GWX (any version for that matter) you get anything better that's available commercially. I'm no fan of game cheats, the depth charge one the game uses is imo a huge cheat the game uses against you which you really have no counter. Does/did GWX limit the # of charges each ship could carry?

07-15-10, 10:02 PM	#12
timmy41 Weps Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 367 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	maybe a command could be made for the game that severely decreases detection. It would be entered by the player. it could be entered again to turn it off. This would be used when bottomed out, but of course theres no way to enforce this, it would have to be entrusted to the honor system, but its better than nothing.