SH5 Interview conclusions

martes86 · 01-20-10, 09:19 AM

Hi everyone,

seeing as it is a global concern the new direction of SH, I'll voice my concerns in a separate thread, this one. So:

- While I don't use myself all types in SH3 or SH4UBM, it's definitely a big loss not to have at least Types II & IX in the sim. That much detail went to the VII interior (a single class, which I guess will always display the same interior no matter the variant used) that the rest of Types couldn't be modelled? At most, I used VII & IX, and that gave some variety to MP missions... now all subs will be the same in MP. And always being restricted to Type VII boats, always the same sight, I don't know. I know for a fact that many people won't like this.
- I hope SH5's crew management (morale and tireness specifically) doesn't work as in SH3, that is, micromanagement at the level of a Bootsmann's or a Leutnant's on-board organization duties.
- Animations have been mentioned. Seeing crew move down the hatch as a "at the moment, no", but maybe later yes? Seeing how much detail is being put into the interiors just for one Type, it would be improper to have a lame teleporting crew.
- Shortcuts. I love the FPS approach, since the captain couldn't actually teleport to stations at will, he had to walk and sort obstacles. But I think my opinion is a minoritary one, and that shortcuts are a matter of gameplay, and that loss can also represent a significative step back, specially when trying to appeal to newbies.
- The approach to the tutorials seems nice. Starting as a lower officer, I guess that we'll see the Kaleun (AI) in action... what kind of stuff will we be able to do as an XO in the tutorial? Or is that just a weird workaround of sorts, and the XO actually acts as the Kaleun but with lower rank? Anyway, if it's real and not a workaround or illusion, it opens some cool ideas for modding.
- The campaign ending in 1943... well, I've never gotten that far in SH3, though it was fun to start a campaign in the late years, and glance at the technologies, the units, the difficulties... having the last 2 years removed is another important loss of what was considered a whole war simulator, not just a sub-period simulator. Again, another thing that never really affected me, but that represents an important detail for others. It also cuts tournament managers (like the WPL) some useful possibilities regarding online campaign management.
- The wolfpacks, well, it would have been desired a more intense communication (specially with BDU, not just do-it-yourself driven actions), judging from what we're being described, but it seems like at least there will be AI subs that act on their own.
- Graphics capabilities, well, seems to be the most evolved part. Antialias, multiple resolutions... that looks like it's going on the right track. We should see how it manages upon release.
- Having had "sort of" an adversarial mode in SH4, cutting this off SH5 seems like another big step back. Coop-mode has been done to death. Fairly straight gaming mode, it doesn't offer much to the players, other than what the respective mission creator had in mind. To this matter, MP gaming, which I see as a strong contributor for life within gaming communities (like the 24th), a revolution on that aspect would do much to keep us alive. With PT-Boats being officially a rather bad (and unable to support our structures) title, SH5 is what's left to us to try to keep MP gaming alive, and tournament/campaign gaming for that matter. It would be a VERY IMPORTANT step to implement multistation gaming. That'd pretty much revive MP gaming. In fact, it is our opinion in the 24th that, if SH5 doesn't meet up to our expectations, we might have to officially support other thematic simulators, like IL2, or ArmA2, so that the community doesn't die out of tournament boredom. There's like 2 months or less ahead to try and implement such a feature, and as a professional programer, having already set-up ordinary MP modes, I think it wouldn't be too hard to implement such a feature.
- Modding. First of all, a solid (and developer friendly) mission editor should come with SH5, that's a must. Second, right, the files are more open and all that... but with no SDK of sorts, and a whole new way of making stuff, figuring out completely how to properly get new stuff into the sim (namely, ships and interiors - 3D models, after all) could perfectly take from 6 months to +1 year, depending on the presence of available and dedicated programmers who can code out some tools, like S3D. Either you must at least implement the old stuff for having a II and IX controllable subs (no full interiors, just the old ones... sort of "legacy" capabilities), or you must make it damn easy to implement such things ourselves. Or else, I see a short lifespan for this title, despite all the good premises.
- Addons and DLCs, well, there's a lot of skepticism regarding those. People are already angry that such stuff is being released just to patch or add stuff that should have been right at the time of release, and doubt if buying addons is really worth it. As for DLCs, if they're free, I'm fine with it, as long as is useful stuff. Pay-DLCs on the other hand, are not the best commercial model for people that are already skeptic about buying full addon packs.
- Copy protection. Totally useless in this world of world-wide piracy, a waste of time for devs, a waste of money for distributor, a headache source for users, and a lot of fun for crackers (and anyone that wants a cracked exe for their pirated game). Since it's probably being done anyways, I hope it's a friendly system, not the nightmare Starforce was.

All that said, I also find it worth of noting the fact that the Devs have taken the time to do the interview, and also take time to answer some questions down in the field, which should clearly show people the attitude of the team towards the fans, despite the results of their development efforts being negative some times.
I also want to say that this is no rant, just some objective thoughts on the interview. Some constructive feedback to help as much as possible. I still have some hope for this title to be worth of our time (and money), I really want it to be a success, because it has stuff I'd very much like to use and have fun with, and because its success will also be our own success.

Cheers.

PS.: Neal, little Q... how did you conduct the interview? In person or via chat/mail?
PS2.: I tried to post this once, the site stopped working, so I think I haven't dup-posted, sorry if I have.

Onkel Neal · 01-20-10, 09:21 AM

It was a phone interview.

Copy protection: no, not totally useless. There are lots of casual pirates it slows down. I know some

martes86 · 01-20-10, 09:30 AM

Casual? The ones I'd call "casual" just go to a dedicated website, and download all stuff from there, with just a tiny set of instructions to know what to do with the files and where to place them. So, I don't really think the protection slows them at all. One would need to be extremely unfamiliarized with the stuff to really think it ain't worth the complication.

Onkel Neal · 01-20-10, 09:56 AM

Well, maybe it will require online activation. Anyway, I don't care. They can use whatever CP they want, and I hope it works. People who steal games

TDK1044 · 01-20-10, 10:12 AM

Let's step back and look at this from a different perspective. Let's say that Silent Hunter III had never been released. What impression would people now have of what we know about the upcoming Silent Hunter V?

What's being offered is a really good video game in the Das Boot mould, with a VII sub, first person crew interraction, a real dynamic campaign and good graphics.

The primary demographic that Ubisoft is most interested in attracting with Silent Hunter V is the casual gamer. To that end, a video game version of Das Boot is right on the money.

Of course there are going to be hard core simmers who don't like the fact that the game ends in 1943 and that it only offers a type VII sub. There will be a few here who don't purchase the game for those reasons.

The gamble that Ubisoft is taking is that they will attract a new audience of players for Silent Hunter V, while also selling the game to most of the simmers who purchased Silent Hunter III and Silent Hunter IV.

Hostility towards the Devs is out of line in my view. They inherit decisions made by the suits and they have to build the game that the publisher orders. Of course they have a lot of input, but they have no say in company strategy.

So, let's see what we get in March. Let's see how modable it is. And let's see how enjoyable it is to play before we trash it.

Redwine · 01-20-10, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TDK1044

Of course there are going to be hard core simmers who don't like the fact that the game ends in 1943 and that it only offers a type VII sub. There will be a few here who don't purchase the game for those reasons.

Seriously i am thinking in that option...

TDK1044 · 01-20-10, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redwine

Seriously i am thinking in that option...

I totally respect that, Redwine. I'm prepared to risk my $50 based on what I've seen of SHV, and based on the fact that the Devs have stated that this game will be more modable than any previous version.

Lanzfeld · 01-20-10, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TDK1044

I totally respect that, Redwine. I'm prepared to risk my $50 based on what I've seen of SHV, and based on the fact that the Devs have stated that this game will be more modable than any previous version.

I hope they dont mean just the skins.

johan_d · 01-20-10, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martes86

Hi everyone,

- The wolfpacks, well, it would have been desired a more intense communication (specially with BDU, not just do-it-yourself driven actions), judging from what we're being described, but it seems like at least there will be AI subs that act on their own.

interaction with BDU is a must to be realistic, since going on your own wasnt done then, and seems now rather pointless and boring..
since the game knows where a ship is and is going BDU could give you some orders to attack it or just not.
in stead of an popping up shipmarker, a message would be better.

martes86 · 01-20-10, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TDK1044

Hostility towards the Devs is out of line in my view. They inherit decisions made by the suits and they have to build the game that the publisher orders. Of course they have a lot of input, but they have no say in company strategy.

None of that came from me (just in case). Actually, due to my job, I'm much more understanding now regarding these issues than I was 10 years ago.
But, in my opinion, it also helps to voice constructive criticism, or some opinions, always from mutual respect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by johan_d

interaction with BDU is a must to be realistic, since going on your own wasnt done then, and seems now rather pointless and boring..
since the game knows where a ship is and is going BDU could give you some orders to attack it or just not.
in stead of an popping up shipmarker, a message would be better.

Lots of things are a must, but unfortunately we can't have them all. Not yet, anyways.

Brag · 01-20-10, 12:59 PM

Shoked by such info as ending the campaign in 1943, Too many people have not re-read the interview and have jumped to incorrect and angry conclusions.

No new game ever meets 100% of expectations of 100% of its core supporters.

It appears to me that the Devs took into consideration the power of the machines the average subsimmer uses and created a game of quality within the reach of us poor folk.

conus00 · 01-20-10, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TDK1044

Let's step back and look at this from a different perspective. Let's say that Silent Hunter III had never been released. ....

There lies the problem: SH3 HAVE BEEN released and from certain perspective was more finished then SH5 is right now. Then GWX came and made it complete WW2 experience.
What I am trying to say is that the limitations of SH5 (1936-1943, only Type VII) are huge leap back regardless how well the sub is simulated...

In gaming industry companies tend to ADD as much more content to the sequel as possible to make players (customers) feel like they are ADVANCING the franchise.

The main why some people judge this release so harshly is that they were kept in the dark until we are almost month before the release. Has it been stated since the beginning that upcoming SH5 will be Type VII simulator only, limited to the portion of the war, people would probably not be disappointed.

What makes me annoyed is the fact that SH5 is not really "continuance" of the franchise and (because of its limitations) should be released under different name. Sorry devs, but SH5 title IS misleading. Had you announced that the "line" of Silent Hunter franchise was abandoned and the game was being released as (for example): Type VII: Atlantic War 1939-1943 the overall acceptance of the game might be much more positive.

urfisch · 01-20-10, 03:34 PM

we just know about ONE straight limitation so far, and this is the players sub.

and there are also some other, like limited interaction (none, i guess) with other boats, limited interaction with bdu and a limited, player affected campaign, which ends in 1943. BUT these limitations are not stated as unchangeable so far!!! so, lets hope for a good base of modability and we will have the best sim we ever wanted.

if not, its going to be like a hamburger. nice to eat, but fast eaten up and you´re getting hungry soon after eaten it.

we will see.

Seaman_Hornsby · 01-20-10, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TDK1044

So, let's see what we get in March. Let's see how modable it is. And let's see how enjoyable it is to play before we trash it.

So nice to read some sense amid all the griping.

01-20-10, 04:26 PM

as i expected, there is a lot i am dissappointed to read and there is also

a lot about sh5 that i am very happy to read about.

give it a few more reads guys and do it with an open mind

and you will see they are giving us a very very moddable game

is it perect? nope, it is tragic? nope, will i buy it? yes definately

i see sh5 as a ready made fixer-upper that just needs to be fine tuned by the modders to be a very great game. after all, we as modders are able to devote a lot more time to the game then the devs are allowed to so i trust this will be a wonderfull game when modded.

plus dont forget they said near the end that if sh5 did well it was likely we would see an expansion for it to add more subs and content to the end of the war. i dont mind paying for another ($10-$15 hopefully) expansion if the new content is done correctly and ads something more to the game.

01-20-10, 09:19 AM	#1
martes86 Grey Wolf Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: The Colourful Seville - Spain Posts: 971 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	SH5 Interview conclusions Hi everyone, seeing as it is a global concern the new direction of SH, I'll voice my concerns in a separate thread, this one. So: - While I don't use myself all types in SH3 or SH4UBM, it's definitely a big loss not to have at least Types II & IX in the sim. That much detail went to the VII interior (a single class, which I guess will always display the same interior no matter the variant used) that the rest of Types couldn't be modelled? At most, I used VII & IX, and that gave some variety to MP missions... now all subs will be the same in MP. And always being restricted to Type VII boats, always the same sight, I don't know. I know for a fact that many people won't like this. - I hope SH5's crew management (morale and tireness specifically) doesn't work as in SH3, that is, micromanagement at the level of a Bootsmann's or a Leutnant's on-board organization duties. - Animations have been mentioned. Seeing crew move down the hatch as a "at the moment, no", but maybe later yes? Seeing how much detail is being put into the interiors just for one Type, it would be improper to have a lame teleporting crew. - Shortcuts. I love the FPS approach, since the captain couldn't actually teleport to stations at will, he had to walk and sort obstacles. But I think my opinion is a minoritary one, and that shortcuts are a matter of gameplay, and that loss can also represent a significative step back, specially when trying to appeal to newbies. - The approach to the tutorials seems nice. Starting as a lower officer, I guess that we'll see the Kaleun (AI) in action... what kind of stuff will we be able to do as an XO in the tutorial? Or is that just a weird workaround of sorts, and the XO actually acts as the Kaleun but with lower rank? Anyway, if it's real and not a workaround or illusion, it opens some cool ideas for modding. - The campaign ending in 1943... well, I've never gotten that far in SH3, though it was fun to start a campaign in the late years, and glance at the technologies, the units, the difficulties... having the last 2 years removed is another important loss of what was considered a whole war simulator, not just a sub-period simulator. Again, another thing that never really affected me, but that represents an important detail for others. It also cuts tournament managers (like the WPL) some useful possibilities regarding online campaign management. - The wolfpacks, well, it would have been desired a more intense communication (specially with BDU, not just do-it-yourself driven actions), judging from what we're being described, but it seems like at least there will be AI subs that act on their own. - Graphics capabilities, well, seems to be the most evolved part. Antialias, multiple resolutions... that looks like it's going on the right track. We should see how it manages upon release. - Having had "sort of" an adversarial mode in SH4, cutting this off SH5 seems like another big step back. Coop-mode has been done to death. Fairly straight gaming mode, it doesn't offer much to the players, other than what the respective mission creator had in mind. To this matter, MP gaming, which I see as a strong contributor for life within gaming communities (like the 24th), a revolution on that aspect would do much to keep us alive. With PT-Boats being officially a rather bad (and unable to support our structures) title, SH5 is what's left to us to try to keep MP gaming alive, and tournament/campaign gaming for that matter. It would be a VERY IMPORTANT step to implement multistation gaming. That'd pretty much revive MP gaming. In fact, it is our opinion in the 24th that, if SH5 doesn't meet up to our expectations, we might have to officially support other thematic simulators, like IL2, or ArmA2, so that the community doesn't die out of tournament boredom. There's like 2 months or less ahead to try and implement such a feature, and as a professional programer, having already set-up ordinary MP modes, I think it wouldn't be too hard to implement such a feature. - Modding. First of all, a solid (and developer friendly) mission editor should come with SH5, that's a must. Second, right, the files are more open and all that... but with no SDK of sorts, and a whole new way of making stuff, figuring out completely how to properly get new stuff into the sim (namely, ships and interiors - 3D models, after all) could perfectly take from 6 months to +1 year, depending on the presence of available and dedicated programmers who can code out some tools, like S3D. Either you must at least implement the old stuff for having a II and IX controllable subs (no full interiors, just the old ones... sort of "legacy" capabilities), or you must make it damn easy to implement such things ourselves. Or else, I see a short lifespan for this title, despite all the good premises. - Addons and DLCs, well, there's a lot of skepticism regarding those. People are already angry that such stuff is being released just to patch or add stuff that should have been right at the time of release, and doubt if buying addons is really worth it. As for DLCs, if they're free, I'm fine with it, as long as is useful stuff. Pay-DLCs on the other hand, are not the best commercial model for people that are already skeptic about buying full addon packs. - Copy protection. Totally useless in this world of world-wide piracy, a waste of time for devs, a waste of money for distributor, a headache source for users, and a lot of fun for crackers (and anyone that wants a cracked exe for their pirated game). Since it's probably being done anyways, I hope it's a friendly system, not the nightmare Starforce was. All that said, I also find it worth of noting the fact that the Devs have taken the time to do the interview, and also take time to answer some questions down in the field, which should clearly show people the attitude of the team towards the fans, despite the results of their development efforts being negative some times. I also want to say that this is no rant, just some objective thoughts on the interview. Some constructive feedback to help as much as possible. I still have some hope for this title to be worth of our time (and money), I really want it to be a success, because it has stuff I'd very much like to use and have fun with, and because its success will also be our own success. Cheers. PS.: Neal, little Q... how did you conduct the interview? In person or via chat/mail? PS2.: I tried to post this once, the site stopped working, so I think I haven't dup-posted, sorry if I have.

01-20-10, 09:21 AM	#2
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,383 Downloads: 541 Uploads: 224	It was a phone interview. Copy protection: no, not totally useless. There are lots of casual pirates it slows down. I know some __________________ SUBSIM - 26 Years on the Web

01-20-10, 09:56 AM	#4
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,383 Downloads: 541 Uploads: 224	Well, maybe it will require online activation. Anyway, I don't care. They can use whatever CP they want, and I hope it works. People who steal games __________________ SUBSIM - 26 Years on the Web

01-20-10, 12:59 PM	#11
Brag Navy Seal Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Docked on a Russian pond Posts: 7,072 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Shoked by such info as ending the campaign in 1943, Too many people have not re-read the interview and have jumped to incorrect and angry conclusions. No new game ever meets 100% of expectations of 100% of its core supporters. It appears to me that the Devs took into consideration the power of the machines the average subsimmer uses and created a game of quality within the reach of us poor folk. __________________ Espionage, adventure, suspense, are just a click away Click here to look inside Brag's book: Amazon.com: Kingmaker: Alexey Braguine: Books Order Kingmaker here: http://www.subsim.com/store.html For Tactics visit:http://www.freewebs.com/kielman/

01-20-10, 03:34 PM	#13
urfisch Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Deep down in Germany Posts: 1,969 Downloads: 42 Uploads: 0	we just know about ONE straight limitation so far, and this is the players sub. and there are also some other, like limited interaction (none, i guess) with other boats, limited interaction with bdu and a limited, player affected campaign, which ends in 1943. BUT these limitations are not stated as unchangeable so far!!! so, lets hope for a good base of modability and we will have the best sim we ever wanted. if not, its going to be like a hamburger. nice to eat, but fast eaten up and you´re getting hungry soon after eaten it. we will see. __________________

01-20-10, 09:30 AM	#3
martes86 Grey Wolf Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: The Colourful Seville - Spain Posts: 971 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	Casual? The ones I'd call "casual" just go to a dedicated website, and download all stuff from there, with just a tiny set of instructions to know what to do with the files and where to place them. So, I don't really think the protection slows them at all. One would need to be extremely unfamiliarized with the stuff to really think it ain't worth the complication.

01-20-10, 10:12 AM	#5
TDK1044 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 2,674 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	Let's step back and look at this from a different perspective. Let's say that Silent Hunter III had never been released. What impression would people now have of what we know about the upcoming Silent Hunter V? What's being offered is a really good video game in the Das Boot mould, with a VII sub, first person crew interraction, a real dynamic campaign and good graphics. The primary demographic that Ubisoft is most interested in attracting with Silent Hunter V is the casual gamer. To that end, a video game version of Das Boot is right on the money. Of course there are going to be hard core simmers who don't like the fact that the game ends in 1943 and that it only offers a type VII sub. There will be a few here who don't purchase the game for those reasons. The gamble that Ubisoft is taking is that they will attract a new audience of players for Silent Hunter V, while also selling the game to most of the simmers who purchased Silent Hunter III and Silent Hunter IV. Hostility towards the Devs is out of line in my view. They inherit decisions made by the suits and they have to build the game that the publisher orders. Of course they have a lot of input, but they have no say in company strategy. So, let's see what we get in March. Let's see how modable it is. And let's see how enjoyable it is to play before we trash it.

01-20-10, 04:26 PM	#15
Webster Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	as i expected, there is a lot i am dissappointed to read and there is also a lot about sh5 that i am very happy to read about. give it a few more reads guys and do it with an open mind and you will see they are giving us a very very moddable game is it perect? nope, it is tragic? nope, will i buy it? yes definately i see sh5 as a ready made fixer-upper that just needs to be fine tuned by the modders to be a very great game. after all, we as modders are able to devote a lot more time to the game then the devs are allowed to so i trust this will be a wonderfull game when modded. plus dont forget they said near the end that if sh5 did well it was likely we would see an expansion for it to add more subs and content to the end of the war. i dont mind paying for another ($10-$15 hopefully) expansion if the new content is done correctly and ads something more to the game.