US is the no. 1 polluter in the world

Thought I'd make a thread about this so the issue won't get buried in the thread about some hackers.

So my claim is that the US is the no. 1 polluter in the world. I base this on the combination of per capita and absolute pollution figures. What is pollution then, well IMO it should cover pollution in all forms, whether airborne, liquid or solid. Or radioactive.

[Ducimus]

I'd be interested in seeing what China's putting out.

http://wpcontent.answers.com/wikiped...n-Aug2005a.gif

GIS "china smog". Ain't no way we compete with that. We did something about our smog years ago. Hell, the state of California is really nazi about it. Every other year, as part of regestering my car, i have to clear my car through the "smog gestapo". If you get nailed as a gross polluter, its a royal PITA.

edit: as an aside, last i was there, Asia didn't have anything like the EPA. You could dump your schitt anywhere, and there was nobody to tell you otherwise.

[AVGWarhawk]

OTH, I just found an article that Australia is the #1 offender. Resent.

http://www.inhabitat.com/2009/09/11/...-in-the-world/

Define the pollution. Air? Trash? Chemical?

In terms of absolute figures China has the no. 1 spot at least when it comes to airborne pollution. At least according to these sources.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...9/china.usnews

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7347638.stm

Although it's possible that the UK media might have an agenda against China and therefore they might be inclined to put out info that paints China negatively and gives a more positive image of their war ally the US.

[Torvald Von Mansee]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Although it's possible that the UK media might have an agenda against China and therefore they might be inclined to put out info that paints China negatively and gives a more positive image of their war ally the US.

Do you know how profoundly paranoid that sounds?

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

OTH, I just found an article that Australia is the #1 offender. Resent.

http://www.inhabitat.com/2009/09/11/...-in-the-world/

Define the pollution. Air? Trash? Chemical?

Well all of them I guess. It becomes difficult when defining how they relate to each other and what about radioactive stuff, is that more dangerous then say several hundred tons of plastic waste etc.

I think what also has to be looked at here is how wealthy the country is, how can they afford to put into antipollution technologies and policies and what is the track record of that country. If say China has passed the US a couple years ago, that still means that the US has been no. 1 for decades before that, right?

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

In terms of absolute figures China has the no. 1 spot at least when it comes to airborne pollution. At least according to these sources.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...9/china.usnews

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7347638.stm

Although it's possible that the UK media might have an agenda against China and therefore they might be inclined to put out info that paints China negatively and gives a more positive image of their war ally the US.

China does keep popping up as numer one. I do not see a purpose or a means to an end for UK media to attempt what you suggest.

[Ducimus]

Although it's possible that the UK media might have an agenda against China and therefore they might be inclined to put out info that paints China negatively and gives a more positive image of their war ally the US.

I think your reaching a bit with that. China is one reason why the price of fuel has gone up. Greater demand from China. Nevermind all the factories and crap there now. Just about everything is made in China now. I suspect China is doing the same thing Korea has for awhile now. To coin a phraise we used alot, "Trying to become a first world nation in one generation." The rate of their industrial expansion has been too quick for other items like pollution control or maybe even labor laws to keep up.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Well all of them I guess. It becomes difficult when defining how they relate to each other and what about radioactive stuff, is that more dangerous then say several hundred tons of plastic waste etc.

I think what also has to be looked at here is how wealthy the country is, how can they afford to put into antipollution technologies and policies and what is the track record of that country. If say China has passed the US a couple years ago, that still means that the US has been no. 1 for decades before that, right?

I can not say for sure US was #1 for decades before China because I find lists and articles that show other countries as the leaders in pollution. I did find the US number one for radioactive waste and taking the number one spot.

Originally Posted by Torvald Von Mansee

Do you know how profoundly paranoid that sounds?

Well the study that the BBC link refers to is made by a US institute. I'd say you are pretty gullible if you think that the US isn't actively trying to use all means it has to put out info that makes the US look less of a polluter that it is.

And that's not paranoia, that's just the way things are. The institutions of a country make studies that favour that country. US universities are also very much funded by big corporations that have a vested intrest in seeing studies that are anti-environmental in some way.

I'm looking for UN studies concerning pollution since despite what people especially in the States say about the UN, it's still the no. 1 most reliable organisation that makes studies on a global level.

[Ducimus]

You know, if you don't like the US, you don't have to go through such lengths to qualify your hatred of us.. Just say, "I hate the US!" and be done with it.

[Skybird]

You have to compare living styles, and that means on emissions: pollution and ressources consummation per head.

that's what makes the US wordwide leader, followed by Canada, Austrlia and Europe.

for example CO2 emissions, because these currently get debated so much:

USA 19 metric tons per capita
CAN 18
AUS 17

GER 10
JAP 10
UK 9
FRA 6
SWE 5

CHN 5

IND 1

Just some key players. Complete lists around the web.

This also must be seen in context with population sizes. Actually some of the small but super-rich Gulf states (Quatar, Emirates, Kuwait) see 2-3 times as high CO2 pollution per capita than in the US, but due to their small population sizes that is less hurting to the planet than the US level. India on the other hand weighs heavier than you could think from that low number per capita, because of it's huge population. If you balance both against each other, per capita pollution versus population size, it is fair to say that the US is the greatest CO2 polluter on earth, said to be responsible for 21% this year, with China following with 20%. But the US citizen has a way of life that makes him producing 4 times as many emissions as the Chinese citizen, and 20 times as many as an Indian.

[AVGWarhawk]

You have to compare living styles, and that means on emissions: pollution and ressources consummation per head.

Why? To me pollution is pollution. Life style has nothing to do with it. Pollution is still pollution. If China is 6 part air pollution to 1 part clean air (6:1) and the US is 5 parts air pollution to 1 part clean air (5:1) then China would lead the way as being # 1. Does not matter how many are creating the pollution. If the air quality in the city of 2 is worse that the air quality in a city of 12, the city of 2 is the number one polluter.

[Ducimus]

And yet, our sky's do not look like China's. In my opinion, the proof is in the end result, not in statistics.

edit:

But the US citizen has a way of life that makes him producing 4 times as many emissions as the Chinese citizen, and 20 times as many as an Indian

Lies, damn lies, and statistics. Have you been to asia? do you know their way of life? Do you know how many drive? Work in factories? Burn coal to heat their homes? You do know they make up nearly 20% of the worlds population?

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Why? To me pollution is pollution. Life style has nothing to do with it. Pollution is still pollution. If China is 6 part air pollution to 1 part clean air (6:1) and the US is 5 parts air pollution to 1 part clean air (5:1) then China would lead the way as being # 1. Does not matter how many are creating the pollution. If the air quality in the city of 2 is worse that the air quality in a city of 12, the city of 2 is the number one polluter.

On some level I agree with you. But I also think there should be some kind of common economic base from where a country like China should build it's nation and it's industry on. If China was a few years ago and in some ways still is a developing nation then the starting off point is very different then with the US.

However I do agree that China and whole Far-East Asia is problematic in that they have very low environmental standards coupled with a very large population clamouring for higher standards of living which is causing increasing amounts of pollution. But this is also a problem caused partly by western industry that outsources there because of low limitations for pollution etc.