Germans and Americans called off storming of a hijacked freighter

Skybird · 05-05-09, 05:32 AM

It shows deficits in Germany's law enforcement forces. The calling off of the attack could be understood as a sign of weakness that now makes German crews possible prime targets for pirates ands hijackers.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...622766,00.html

Quote:

(...)
The Americans had lent the Germans one of their ships, the USS Boxer, to use as their flagship in the planned attack -- and a fleet of German Navy vessels flanked the enormous helicopter carrier. The ships had been patrolling near the Hansa Stavanger for days, waiting just beyond the horizon to evade detection on the pirates' radar screens.
(...)
Although the dramatic narrative of the cancelled rescue operation is an example of great resolve on the part of German and American authorities, it also points to deficits. It shows that, in such extreme situations, the German government is essentially incapable of deploying its law enforcement authorities in a purposeful way. And even if the mission had proceeded according to plan and had been successful, it is worth noting that there are parts of Somalia where even Germany's highly sophisticated, elite forces would be ineffective -- places where such operations would be nothing short of a Mission Impossible.

The cancellation of the freighter rescue operation represents a heavy setback for German Interior Minister Wolfgang Schäuble, a Christian Democrat (CDU), and Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier, a Social Democrat (SPD). The two ministers were intent on ending this hostage crisis militarily, if at all possible, and they had the backing of Chancellor Merkel, who had asked for regular updates. Schäuble and Steinmeier, weary of the dollar diplomacy of the past few years, were eager to set an important international precedent -- to let the world know that the Germans are no longer willing to pay up when blackmailed by gangsters and terrorists, and that they are capable of a more forceful response.

German citizens have been kidnapped and taken hostage on numerous occasions in various remote parts of the world. Since 2005, a crisis team at the German Foreign Ministry has been called upon to resolve more than 20 such cases, with money exchanging hands in almost every instance.

The government was determined to break this pattern but, as it turned out, it had overestimated its capabilities. What began as an effort to send a signal of strength ended up, in the Stavanger case, as a sign of impotence.

This could have serious consequences. German sailors can now expect to become prime targets for pirates, in contrast to their French or American counterparts, whose governments have not hesitated to use force to rescue their citizens.

The German government's handling of this crisis was not exactly serendipitous. This time it was not the usual political spats within Merkel's Grand Coalition government of conservative Christian Democrats and center-left Social Democrats compounding an already tricky mission, but quarreling among the relevant government agencies. In the end, it was both the qualms of the Federal Police and the new administration in Washington that nixed the operation. There are undoubtedly senior ministry officials in Berlin who are grateful to the Americans for halting an operation that could very well have ended in disaster.

Although there was no shortage of resolve in Berlin, the Germans did lack the means to complete the operation successfully. There is a vast divide between Berlin's sensitivities and the raw reality of African pirates, who care very little about turf wars among German bureaucrats. The case exposes serious deficiencies in the Germany security apparatus.

Although the GSG-9 is constantly being trained for maritime missions, it lacks the logistics for speedy operations beyond German borders. The German military, the Bundeswehr, can provide the logistics, but it in turn lacks a sufficient number of readily deployable special operations forces. There is poor cooperation between the two organizations, while strategists are hampered by legal restrictions. And in some cases the Germans simply lack the necessary equipment. In the case of the Hansa Stavanger, the German government had to borrow aircraft and an American helicopter carrier to transport its close combat experts within range of the freighter. But by the time these preparations were complete, three weeks had already passed since pirates captured the ship on April 4.
(...)

there can be no doubt that such a mission would have been a high risk operation indeed. But there are alternatives, and that are to syetmatically strike and destroy the pirates strongholds on land, sink their boats as soon as spotted to go onto the attack (as long as they do not become active you can't differ them from peaceful fisherboats), and try to kill as many of them as possible. That'S why for the latter purpose a much greater number of rocket-equipped helicopter gunships are needed in the area.

the called off operation ha smade things worse, no doubt. On the scene in location, but also polit-strategically for Germany (and German travellers) in general.

Freiwillige · 05-05-09, 08:19 AM

Germany was once a fierce and powerful nation. But once it was destroyed in WWII Germany has lost both the political will and military will to fight. It is a shame because Germany can be strong without being oppressive. Germans can defend themselves and their interests abroad without being over bearing. But German society is always one of extremes it seems, Either you are extremely militant or Extremely Passive. I sincerely hope that Germany finds its balance and stands up for its interests once again.

Skybird · 05-05-09, 08:39 AM

Problem is politics, and communal psychology. Which after two started and lost world wars is no wonder, probably. It has castrated Germany of what was evil - but also of things that are good, namely determination to accept even robust force in defence of what is worth to be defended. Until 1989, it was believed that germany's obligation is to stay out of conflicts and fights, to make up for the mess the Hitler tyranny had created for both Germany's neighbours, and germany itself. I would have preferred to compensate for those wrongdoings by engaging in decisive conflicts for sure - but this time to make sure one is standing up for the just and right side instead of injustice and evil.

Politics maybe will, and to some degree have regained willingness to use tougher force if needed. But the public psychology has not followed that.

Militarily, despite the obvious logistical and number-related deficits, germany could play a military role indeed, and a major one, if ignoring the immense costs of reunification that have seriously handicapped state fiances since '89. There are quite some military technology fields were Germany still belongs to the leading global elite, namely conventional submarines (type 212/214 described as the most silent sub in the world), tanks (Leopard-2 described as the best tank in the world, and by far the most produced western tank), and firearms. The potency of the GSG-9 and the military special commandos called KSK are beyond doubt. The GSG-9 has been modelled after the example of the British SAS, and the KSK earned solid respect for it'S display of capability in Afghanistan. Although since long time the government prefers to waste the KSK presence by letting the specialists sit around in the camps, making them unavailable for military planning and operation.

Politicians should make the decison on war and peace. They should listen on the military'S advise pro and contra the various options. But once they voted for war, they should step aside and leave the running of the show to the military. The only German chancellor who really was an insider and thus, kind of an expert for military stuff, was Helmut Schmidt (Lieutenant in WWII). And it showed in his handling of the terrorism issues during his years (he was adamant and very detemrined, though not easy-minded or irresponsible), and his handling of the great storm tide in Hamburg in the sixties: he bypassed the German authorities and bureaucratic hierarchy completely and directly called the NATO headquarter in Brussel and the Saceur of that time, requesting help the german government was capable of, too, but would have taken too much time to organise by itself. Although people died, many more people saved their lives thanks to Schmidt's unorthodox style and authority (which made him many enemies, but raised him much respect and loyalty by the population).

Jimbuna · 05-05-09, 09:52 AM

Putting the internal politics to one side if I may (I'm not a German national) it would appear you have the men, training equipment, but only for European theatres of operations in the main.

What is lacking is the equipment that allows you to project those positive attributes across the globe.

The UK is fast approaching, as a consequence of a reduction in military budgets over the past decade, the same level of impotence as yourselves.

August · 05-05-09, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freiwillige

But German society is always one of extremes it seems, Either you are extremely militant or Extremely Passive.

That is a very astute observation.

Skybird · 05-05-09, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Putting the internal politics to one side if I may (I'm not a German national) it would appear you have the men, training equipment, but only for European theatres of operations in the main.

What is lacking is the equipment that allows you to project those positive attributes across the globe.

One word: logistics. I always found it insane to send troops to Afghanistan - but depending on other nations' means (Russia, USA, EU members) to transport these troops there, to maintain a logistic and supply line, even to quickly shuttle them inside Afghanistan.

Which all is a result of the post-WWII-doctrine, of course: never again an aggressive Germany, projection military forces outside it's borders.

but if you can't go to a place by yourself, and cannot get out there by yourslef, and cannot maintain to stay there by yourself - maybe it is a stupid idea then to even wish to go there at all. At least it is in my view.

Onkel Neal · 05-05-09, 10:21 AM

Well, it's easy to pick on the German govt for a lack of resolve. We don't know if there were other factors that led tocalling off the rescue mission. As you said, Sky, there is a lot of risk involved, maybe the families objected behind the scenes...

Skybird · 05-05-09, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Well, it's easy to pick on the German govt for a lack of resolve. We don't know if there were other factors that led tocalling off the rescue mission. As you said, Sky, there is a lot of risk involved, maybe the families objected behind the scenes...

I doubt they have been told in advance that the operation was under preparation. The revealing of it being called off came as a total surprise. It was not even expected that something like this eventually would be taken into account.

Jimbuna · 05-05-09, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

One word: logistics. I always found it insane to send troops to Afghanistan - but depending on other nations' means (Russia, USA, EU members) to transport these troops there, to maintain a logistic and supply line, even to quickly shuttle them inside Afghanistan.

Which all is a result of the post-WWII-doctrine, of course: never again an aggressive Germany, projection military forces outside it's borders.

but if you can't go to a place by yourself, and cannot get out there by yourslef, and cannot maintain to stay there by yourself - maybe it is a stupid idea then to even wish to go there at all. At least it is in my view.

Truer words you'll never speak

Freiwillige · 05-05-09, 10:59 AM

As a military force the Bundeswehr has grown out of the ashes of the Wehrmacht into a nice capable force. But it is politicaly neutered.

What good is it having the finest main battle tank in the world the Leopard II if you never get the permission to use it? I almost beleive that the German government would use it for the defence of France or Poland but never for its own self interests. Its almost a self hatred phenominon Germans have nurtered into themselves. My advice, Admit the past and move on for a better future. This National guilt complex for the crimes commited during 12 years 65+ years ago cannot be healthy for your nations future and this political paralises in 2009 can be linked directly to the concious of the German polulation for what happened in 1933-45.

Skybird · 05-05-09, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freiwillige

This nNtional guilt complex

That's what it is indeed. A trauma, and a psychotic self-flagellation.

But it was also a comfortable excuse to shy away from exhausting enterprises, and to practice dollar-diplomacy instead.

Maybe it is changing a bit with the young ones, let's say age 20 or younger. It seems so. However, take into account that while they may not be himndred by the past, they are not used to the trouble of how tough life can be when needing to wage war. They are members of the fun-fun-fun-generation. And that shows even in civil life in peaceful Germany. The expectations are growing into heaven, materialistic desires dominate, economic crisis yes or no. Roman virtues you do not see often these days.

Else, there is nothing wrong in not being enthusiastic to use military forces one does have. I certainly do not want any such enthusiasm. As I often say: determination (in peace as well as in war) is enough. that we have now the latest Leopard2A6 dies not mean we should have participated in the Iraq war, and we (like all NATO) also should not have allowed to get lured into the Afghan maze. There were plenty of too high and too wrong expectations of what could be acchieved from the very beginning. On the other hand, I voted from the beginning for a tough going against the piracy in Somalia, the Lebanon war, and the Gaza operation. All were handled with more or less the brakes set, and in case of the EU and Israel europe opposing the fighting actor. And all of these missions failed for that reason, or are still failing.

Freiwillige · 05-05-09, 11:57 AM

I remember a few years back in school we were having an open discussion about the holocaust. People brought in news clippings and the such and one girl brought in a clipping of out of the local paper about how the movie Schindlers List was being shown to German youth in German Schools.

I immedietly spoke up about how wrong and unhealthy it is. The class was puzzled as most had seen this as a great thing. My argument was that having just watched the movie and its graphic content being fresh on my mind was that this was far to inepropriate for children! The article went on to say that the movies were being shown to youth as young as 8!!!!!

Talk about rubbing their nose in it. Nobody under the age of 16 should have ever seen this film. Education is one thing but seeing and being taught that your society is evil from the age of 8 is paramount to commiting national suicide in my oppinion. Few in my class felt sorry for the Germans and felt it was okay. But a couple including my teacher actually saw my point. Education is one thing, but tramatising youth into future guilt is another.

Schroeder · 05-05-09, 12:59 PM

True, but sometimes it is necessary to get a shock in young age.
You know that Neo Nazis are trying to manipulate children to follow their propaganda?
They don't hesitate in poisoning children's minds, the younger the better for them because the children can't form their own opinion yet and just "follow the leader".
So you have to teach them early to prevent them from falling for the Nazi BS.

Skybird · 05-05-09, 01:41 PM

I was age 11 when I first say a school movie called "By Nacht und Nebel", and I must say: yes, it shocked me and most others, far more than Schindler's List could ever do, because the film used documentary material, and it hid nothing, while Schindler's List in the end is just playactied scenes and narration, compared to the documentary movie it is absolutely tame.

I agree with Schroeder, it was a shock, and it troubled my mind for a longer time afterwards, due to the brutal pictures of piles of bodies that were so thin you even could mistaken them for animals, and the visions of the gas and burning chmabers. But seen from a pespective of just a few years later, it is and was a healthy shock.

If such films do not shock anymore - what else short of the repetition of the real thing would? for the same reason I criticise the military-lobbying recruiting videos, and movies that glorify being a soldier and fight in a war, like so many blockbuster do. They are lame and tame in 9 out of 10 cases, and give a lame and tame impression of the real thing. By that it is no wonder that a society that is exposed to this kind of "culture" in general is more eager to accept politics turning into wars, like a society that still carries the scars of the last war in it's very middle, and sees the scars in the buildings of all major towns and cities, still. If somebody wants to volunteer in the miliztary, let him come to that deciison all by himself and then respect it. But lobbying for such a decision and trying to make people making such decisions and talk them into it, in my opinion simply is a real and very serious crime.

Freiwillige · 05-05-09, 03:00 PM

So by your very logic all European people should show movies of vile war crimes to children to shock them into being better adults.....I dont buy it.

How many movies did you see about Communist attrocitys growing up?

Children should not be exposed to adult issues and that is paramount to child abuse in my eyes. Should children also watch videos of hookers so that they dont grow up and become prostitutes? or maybe videos of drug addicts shooting up heroin so they get shocked into staying clean?

05-05-09, 08:39 AM	#3
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,603 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Problem is politics, and communal psychology. Which after two started and lost world wars is no wonder, probably. It has castrated Germany of what was evil - but also of things that are good, namely determination to accept even robust force in defence of what is worth to be defended. Until 1989, it was believed that germany's obligation is to stay out of conflicts and fights, to make up for the mess the Hitler tyranny had created for both Germany's neighbours, and germany itself. I would have preferred to compensate for those wrongdoings by engaging in decisive conflicts for sure - but this time to make sure one is standing up for the just and right side instead of injustice and evil. Politics maybe will, and to some degree have regained willingness to use tougher force if needed. But the public psychology has not followed that. Militarily, despite the obvious logistical and number-related deficits, germany could play a military role indeed, and a major one, if ignoring the immense costs of reunification that have seriously handicapped state fiances since '89. There are quite some military technology fields were Germany still belongs to the leading global elite, namely conventional submarines (type 212/214 described as the most silent sub in the world), tanks (Leopard-2 described as the best tank in the world, and by far the most produced western tank), and firearms. The potency of the GSG-9 and the military special commandos called KSK are beyond doubt. The GSG-9 has been modelled after the example of the British SAS, and the KSK earned solid respect for it'S display of capability in Afghanistan. Although since long time the government prefers to waste the KSK presence by letting the specialists sit around in the camps, making them unavailable for military planning and operation. Politicians should make the decison on war and peace. They should listen on the military'S advise pro and contra the various options. But once they voted for war, they should step aside and leave the running of the show to the military. The only German chancellor who really was an insider and thus, kind of an expert for military stuff, was Helmut Schmidt (Lieutenant in WWII). And it showed in his handling of the terrorism issues during his years (he was adamant and very detemrined, though not easy-minded or irresponsible), and his handling of the great storm tide in Hamburg in the sixties: he bypassed the German authorities and bureaucratic hierarchy completely and directly called the NATO headquarter in Brussel and the Saceur of that time, requesting help the german government was capable of, too, but would have taken too much time to organise by itself. Although people died, many more people saved their lives thanks to Schmidt's unorthodox style and authority (which made him many enemies, but raised him much respect and loyalty by the population). __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

05-05-09, 09:52 AM	#4
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,473 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Putting the internal politics to one side if I may (I'm not a German national) it would appear you have the men, training equipment, but only for European theatres of operations in the main. What is lacking is the equipment that allows you to project those positive attributes across the globe. The UK is fast approaching, as a consequence of a reduction in military budgets over the past decade, the same level of impotence as yourselves. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

05-05-09, 10:21 AM	#7
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,383 Downloads: 541 Uploads: 224	Well, it's easy to pick on the German govt for a lack of resolve. We don't know if there were other factors that led tocalling off the rescue mission. As you said, Sky, there is a lot of risk involved, maybe the families objected behind the scenes... __________________ SUBSIM - 26 Years on the Web

05-05-09, 12:59 PM	#13
Schroeder Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Banana Republic of Germany Posts: 6,170 Downloads: 62 Uploads: 0	True, but sometimes it is necessary to get a shock in young age. You know that Neo Nazis are trying to manipulate children to follow their propaganda? They don't hesitate in poisoning children's minds, the younger the better for them because the children can't form their own opinion yet and just "follow the leader". So you have to teach them early to prevent them from falling for the Nazi BS. __________________ Putting Germ back into Germany.

05-05-09, 01:41 PM	#14
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,603 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	I was age 11 when I first say a school movie called "By Nacht und Nebel", and I must say: yes, it shocked me and most others, far more than Schindler's List could ever do, because the film used documentary material, and it hid nothing, while Schindler's List in the end is just playactied scenes and narration, compared to the documentary movie it is absolutely tame. I agree with Schroeder, it was a shock, and it troubled my mind for a longer time afterwards, due to the brutal pictures of piles of bodies that were so thin you even could mistaken them for animals, and the visions of the gas and burning chmabers. But seen from a pespective of just a few years later, it is and was a healthy shock. If such films do not shock anymore - what else short of the repetition of the real thing would? for the same reason I criticise the military-lobbying recruiting videos, and movies that glorify being a soldier and fight in a war, like so many blockbuster do. They are lame and tame in 9 out of 10 cases, and give a lame and tame impression of the real thing. By that it is no wonder that a society that is exposed to this kind of "culture" in general is more eager to accept politics turning into wars, like a society that still carries the scars of the last war in it's very middle, and sees the scars in the buildings of all major towns and cities, still. If somebody wants to volunteer in the miliztary, let him come to that deciison all by himself and then respect it. But lobbying for such a decision and trying to make people making such decisions and talk them into it, in my opinion simply is a real and very serious crime. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

05-05-09, 08:19 AM	#2
Freiwillige The Old Man Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Phx. Az Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	Germany was once a fierce and powerful nation. But once it was destroyed in WWII Germany has lost both the political will and military will to fight. It is a shame because Germany can be strong without being oppressive. Germans can defend themselves and their interests abroad without being over bearing. But German society is always one of extremes it seems, Either you are extremely militant or Extremely Passive. I sincerely hope that Germany finds its balance and stands up for its interests once again.

05-05-09, 10:59 AM	#10
Freiwillige The Old Man Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Phx. Az Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	As a military force the Bundeswehr has grown out of the ashes of the Wehrmacht into a nice capable force. But it is politicaly neutered. What good is it having the finest main battle tank in the world the Leopard II if you never get the permission to use it? I almost beleive that the German government would use it for the defence of France or Poland but never for its own self interests. Its almost a self hatred phenominon Germans have nurtered into themselves. My advice, Admit the past and move on for a better future. This National guilt complex for the crimes commited during 12 years 65+ years ago cannot be healthy for your nations future and this political paralises in 2009 can be linked directly to the concious of the German polulation for what happened in 1933-45.

05-05-09, 11:57 AM	#12
Freiwillige The Old Man Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Phx. Az Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	I remember a few years back in school we were having an open discussion about the holocaust. People brought in news clippings and the such and one girl brought in a clipping of out of the local paper about how the movie Schindlers List was being shown to German youth in German Schools. I immedietly spoke up about how wrong and unhealthy it is. The class was puzzled as most had seen this as a great thing. My argument was that having just watched the movie and its graphic content being fresh on my mind was that this was far to inepropriate for children! The article went on to say that the movies were being shown to youth as young as 8!!!!! Talk about rubbing their nose in it. Nobody under the age of 16 should have ever seen this film. Education is one thing but seeing and being taught that your society is evil from the age of 8 is paramount to commiting national suicide in my oppinion. Few in my class felt sorry for the Germans and felt it was okay. But a couple including my teacher actually saw my point. Education is one thing, but tramatising youth into future guilt is another.

05-05-09, 03:00 PM	#15
Freiwillige The Old Man Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Phx. Az Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	So by your very logic all European people should show movies of vile war crimes to children to shock them into being better adults.....I dont buy it. How many movies did you see about Communist attrocitys growing up? Children should not be exposed to adult issues and that is paramount to child abuse in my eyes. Should children also watch videos of hookers so that they dont grow up and become prostitutes? or maybe videos of drug addicts shooting up heroin so they get shocked into staying clean?