U-484's demise and controversy

[Seaveins]

I have been doing some reading on U-484's sinking on 9/09/44 and the ensuing controversy crediting the kill first to the RCN and then later the RN. In reading an account by a seaman on the corvette HMCS Hespeler that described the search for evidence of the sinking, I wondered why ASDIC and/or sonar wouldn't have helped confirm the tragic event. U-484 (or something else) was being tracked by the Hespeler's partner, frigate HMCS Dunver's ASDIC. In short, if submarines constantly need to be quiet to remain elusive, I wonder why a catastrophe such as an imploding pressure hull, screams, etc. wouldn't make one hell of a blip on the screen. Or does it not work that way?

[Letum]

I don't know the details of this sinking, but generally speaking it is hard to hear
when a u-boats pressure hull breaks because it tends to happen when the sound
is obscured by depth charges or the bubbles left by depth charges.

Aside from that, there is no "screen" for sounds in ww2 destroyers, just
headphones. Destroyers make a lot of noise and have a lot of "blind" spots. it would
be easy to miss any sound.

[Brag]

Originally Posted by Letum

I don't know the details of this sinking, but generally speaking it is hard to hear
when a u-boats pressure hull breaks because it tends to happen when the sound
is obscured by depth charges or the bubbles left by depth charges.

Aside from that, there is no "screen" for sounds in ww2 destroyers, just
headphones. Destroyers make a lot of noise and have a lot of "blind" spots. it would
be easy to miss any sound.

Unless it is relatively slow leaks, if the hull gets crushed, the end is fast, water enters at great pressure, the air heats up to something like 1500 degress C. There are no screams. It's over in a matter of seconds.

According to the book The Canadian Naval Chronicle (F.McKee and R. Darlington) credit for sinking U-484 (KK W.A. Schaefer) was eventually given to the RCN since a Mention in Dispatches was awarded to LCdr Nicholson of HMCS Hespeler in October 1945. The attack on U-484 employed a combination of depth charges, Hedgehog and Squid and the narrative indicates that Squid was the decisive weapon.

I doubt if 1944 hydrophones could have detected or identified the effects Seaveins suggests particularly if failure of the pressure hull was concurrent with a triple salvo of Squid projectiles. Particularly since the RCN was usually last in line for modern electronics although again the narrative can be interpreted to read that Hespeler was better equipped than Dunver which makes some sense since she was a frigate and not a corvette.

Note that at least one, perhaps two secondary explosions were noted that were in addition to the three from the killing Squid salvo. One would think that the noise of these and the shallow water might have prevented further acoustic detection.

[Letum]

This is way off topic, but recently I was speaking to a Royal Navy Veteran whose
destroyer was hit by a u-boat. He said that the thing that stuck with him was
that as the destroyer slipped beneath the waves on an even keel and he was
kicking and swimming to reach the surface, he could hear the bang-bang-bang of
a damage repair crew in a air pocket in the ship still trying to seal the leaks,
unaware that the tip of the mast was slipping beneath the waves.

He spent 14 days alone on a raft before he was picked up.

Chilling.

[Murr44]

Originally Posted by Letum

This is way off topic, but recently I was speaking to a Royal Navy Veteran whose
destroyer was hit by a u-boat. He said that the thing that stuck with him was
that as the destroyer slipped beneath the waves on an even keel and he was
kicking and swimming to reach the surface, he could hear the bang-bang-bang of
a damage repair crew in a air pocket in the ship still trying to seal the leaks,
unaware that the tip of the mast was slipping beneath the waves.

He spent 14 days alone on a raft before he was picked up.

Chilling.

Yes that is rather creepy...

[bookworm_020]

Originally Posted by Letum

This is way off topic, but recently I was speaking to a Royal Navy Veteran whose
destroyer was hit by a u-boat. He said that the thing that stuck with him was
that as the destroyer slipped beneath the waves on an even keel and he was
kicking and swimming to reach the surface, he could hear the bang-bang-bang of
a damage repair crew in a air pocket in the ship still trying to seal the leaks,
unaware that the tip of the mast was slipping beneath the waves.

He spent 14 days alone on a raft before he was picked up.

Chilling.

That would haunt you till you die....

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Letum

This is way off topic, but recently I was speaking to a Royal Navy Veteran whose
destroyer was hit by a u-boat. He said that the thing that stuck with him was
that as the destroyer slipped beneath the waves on an even keel and he was
kicking and swimming to reach the surface, he could hear the bang-bang-bang of
a damage repair crew in a air pocket in the ship still trying to seal the leaks,
unaware that the tip of the mast was slipping beneath the waves.

He spent 14 days alone on a raft before he was picked up.

Chilling.

I wonder which is the luckier.....those that perished or the individual spending 14 days afloat and terrible memories for the rest of their life :hmm:

[Tombow]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

I wonder which is the luckier.....those that perished or the individual spending 14 days afloat and terrible memories for the rest of their life :hmm:

Either way, it's the stuff goosebumps and nightmares are made from. Those on the subs dying without seeing the light are spared from their nightmares...which go to the survivors up on the surface. Decide for yourself or toss a coin. No easy way out.

[Seaveins]

[quote=Randomizer]According to the book The Canadian Naval Chronicle (F.McKee and R. Darlington) credit for sinking U-484 (KK W.A. Schaefer) was eventually given to the RCN since a Mention in Dispatches was awarded to LCdr Nicholson of HMCS Hespeler in October 1945. The attack on U-484 employed a combination of depth charges, Hedgehog and Squid and the narrative indicates that Squid was the decisive weapon.

quote]

The controversy I was referring to started around 1996 when R. N. Coppock of the Royal Navy's historical section determined that it was more likely that Porchester Castle and Helmsdale had sunk U-484. I have been reading the accounts of veterans that are disputing this. I am lucky to work with someone who's grandfather, Edward Lodge, was on the HMCS Hespeler (AA gunner) during the attack. He has an unbelievable memory of this and even provided copies from his war diary of the applicable period. An example of what I am reading from pages Thursday, Sept. 7, 1944 through Tuesday, Sept. 12, 1944:

"(9/7/44) Nothing happened last night. I was sure surprised as we expected to be attacked. We were supposed to have 14 days in this time so I put in for 7 days to see (aunt in UK). I may have got it but we were signaled later on that we are joining a task force to hunt subs as soon as we refuel. We will be in early tomorrow. Nothing should bother us tonight as about 20 ships came out to meet us. (9/8/44) I was wrong!! At 4.25 this morning "Action" rang. I went up with a flannel, dungarees, and runners on. We were one hour from harbour and a ship was torpedoed. We were about 15 min. when the skipper told us the rescue ship had just went down. We were at "stations" for 2 hrs. I nearly froze as it was cold and real windy, and we were soaked. An English trawler picked up 87 survivors and (121 missing) around a sub after sighting two (so the buzz goes). We came in this afternoon and expect to go out again in the night. (9/9/44) We left (Movile?) at 0015 and two hours later picked up a contact and went to "action stat". We dropped one pattern and nothing happened. The second caused explosions. Nothing the third. Fourth caused explosions and the fifth brought something up which the Dunver said was a sub. We secured at 4.30 AM. (9/10/44) Tons of oil, wreckage, and bodies about. We had "action stations" again a few times but nothing for sure. A couple of times the Asdic heard motors so we are sure there is something around. (9/11/44) Action Stations again at 5.30 PM as a sub was seen by an aircraft. We had loads of contacts and dropped patterns. We secured a couple of hours later after seeing loads of dead fish and nothing else. We closed up a few more times but no results. Our mail is on a ship only a mile away but we can't get it. I feel sorry for the fellows down below when we are dropping patterns. (9/12/44) We went up the Foyle to about 13 miles from (Derey?) at seven p.m. we took on a lot of squid charges (hedgehog for Dunver) and then had supper about 10.30. We are going out again tonight."

I thought our forum members might enjoy reading this unpublished account from the other side of the battle.

-Seaveins